Should I become a member of a church? Feat. Pastor Jonny McGreevy

What is the origination of church? Why do we do it? Why are there so many? Why are there so many problems? Is church Biblical? What is church? Why does it not appear in the Old Testament? What could the church do better in order to get rid of the negative conniptions that usually come with it?

These are all questions we will answer in this podcast!

Timecodes:

0:00 - Intro
2:28 - What is a church?
12:19 - Is there an equivalent to church in the Old Testament?
17:46 - What is the significance of church theologically?
23:39 - What is the importance and benefits of being plugged into a church?
34:30 - What could the church do better?
44:42 - Conclusion | Main takeaway

Music by
Over the limits
Vernacolmusic

Chapters

• 0:00 Intro
• 2:28 What is a church?
• 12:19 Is there an equivalent to church in the Old Testament?
• 17:46 What is the significance of church theologically?
• 23:39 What is the importance and benefits of being plugged into a church?
• 34:30 What could the church do better?
• 44:42 Conclusion | Main takeaway

Transcript

Wildfire podcast is an extension of Wildfire, which has a focus of igniting men and women of God into a deeper discipleship with Christ, instilling people with a passion to radically and relentlessly pursue Christ wherever that leads.

That God's truth will spread like a wildfire.

Hey, everyone, welcome back to another podcast.

I am joined with a very, very special guest, and I'm not in no way biased, and it is Mr.

Jonny McGreevy.

How are you, Luke?

I'll push that over to you, just so the people can hear you.

Make sure I'm heard.

So can you tell us a bit about yourself, like who you are?

Yeah, so Jonny, I'm married to Laura, and we've got three girls, Anna, Beth and Erin.

Anna's in P7, and the twins are in P5.

And we've been living up on the North Coast for about a year and a half, and I'm pastoring at Port Stewart Baptist Church.

Yeah.

So rumor has it, you're not really that busy.

So if people need your help in anything, you're afraid.

Well, basically you indicate enough times that you're busy and people will believe it.

Yeah, so, yeah, very special, yes.

You're my pastor and co-worker these days too.

And co-worker, yes.

So I am glad that I've got you on the podcast.

And whenever I heard that you once you agreed to be in the podcast, I thought I could give you an easy topic.

And so today's topic is why should I become a member of a church?

And I really have had no mercy on the questions that I'm going to ask you, but I back you.

So why should I become a member of a church?

I think is extremely important.

And I think especially amongst my generation, the younger generations, I think they're being brought up where this idea of church hopping, going to a church that has good praise there, good teaching there, good youth there.

And it's very like a consumer aspect is this model that is adopted to church.

And so we want to just sort of remove any of the wrong ideas that can be clouded with church.

And we want to remove some of the skepticism that people come of why they don't join a church, some of the brokenness that's came, et cetera.

And just to bring it back to that the church is God's idea and it's God's model for how we can flourish as his bride.

So the first question that I'm going to ask you is, what is a church?

Can I actually put this back and just give you a wee bit of an idea of where I'm coming from on this?

Because it may seem a bit obvious like, well, here's the pastor coming to sell the church because that's his job.

But I grew up on the fringes of church and very much found church as a young person, something hard to break into.

I was a follower of Jesus, had become a Christian about 11 or 12, but my family weren't believers.

And so even then, like church was a slow burn with me.

I wasn't persuaded at the start and hung off and was at the sides and although I loved Jesus, I found it hard to break into.

Didn't always find it accessible or welcoming.

And then kind of through our 20s, Laura and I were living out in the States.

And we ended up at a particular type of church that did not tick many of our boxes, if you were thinking about it that way.

But it was in that context that God taught us the difference between passion and preference.

So all of us, I think, arrive at church with a bunch of boxes that we want tics.

And a lot of them are stylistic and superficial.

And this church didn't tick those at all.

But the people were loving, and they loved the Lord, and God was blessing it.

And we found ourselves falling in love with them, even though a lot of the form wasn't, you know.

And so that was really instrumental.

I would say I'm somebody that has fallen in love with the church.

And I'm also just, I'm learning about this all the time.

This is something I'm always speaking into.

I think I said at church the other week, I think I've done about seven or eight churches during 20 years of pastoral ministry, almost trying to convince Christians about church.

So there's something, I don't know what that's about, but that is a real problem.

So like, I don't think you've pulled this out of the sky.

This is a real issue for a lot of people.

Why am I bothering with church?

Yeah.

So back to your question.

What is church?

So off the top of my head, church is God's called out, chosen, redeemed people.

So one of my most frequently used scriptures, 1st Peter 2, verses 9 to 11, once you were not a people, but now you're God's people.

And I love using that.

I use that a lot in blessings, the end of our services.

And I also read it out when we bring people into membership.

Church is also the body of Christ, of which Jesus is the head.

Colossians in 1st Corinthians 12 talks about that.

The bride of Christ, and we'll touch on that a wee bit later.

And there's the challenge there of Jesus laying down his life for the bride.

And church is also the vessel or the kind of instrument or tool that God has chosen to reveal himself to the world through.

And I'm always coming up with these kind of new answers.

I'm not coming up with them.

I'm seeing them in the Bible.

But this one in Ephesians 3, Paul writes, To me, though I'm the very least of all the saints this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ and to bring delight for everyone, what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things so that through the church, the manifold wisdom of God might be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places?

That's a crazy job description.

So part of the role, the job, the importance of the churches, we declare the wisdom and the glory of God to the earth below and to heavens above.

It's just no pressure.

Yeah, no pressure.

But that's all of us.

Just the guy at the front.

Yeah, definitely.

And I think now I heard, is there a framework and a structure that actually makes a church?

Is there certain criteria that has to be met for a church to be?

Or can I just go into my house and start a church?

I heard it said, a gentleman came up and said, about starting a church, and he was like, listen, what is the church?

What is the church?

And he walked out of the coffee shop and said, like, I am the church.

And I make myself known.

And I think that there's a germ of truth in that.

But the reality is, if that was the case, then, you know what I mean, the church of Jonny McGreevy, the church of Luke Taylor, there seems to be a flaw in there.

So, is there any criteria that actually makes a church or?

Yeah, so that kind of scenario you point out is really good.

So, yes, in a sense, you are the church.

So, when people come to me and talk about the church, I put it back on them and say, you're talking about yourself.

So, how are you gonna be part of the answer, part of the solution?

This scenario of, well, I'm just gonna go start my own thing or I'm just gonna, I don't see the need to be a member of a church.

So, one of the big principles that I've fallen back on through the years is those who seek to lead must show that they can be led.

And I think that's a really important principle because we're our own worst enemy.

And whenever we pursue autonomy and don't yield to accountability, we're in trouble.

And so kind of a wee illustration that I used recently when we brought folk into membership in church.

So if you imagine, you go to a wedding, a man and woman stand up front and they make promises before God and before people.

And in those promises, a family of some description, they might have kids, they might not, but a family is birthed.

And the basis for that family to grow is established.

And the reason you make those vows is because you're recognizing, as much as you love each other on the day, somewhere along the lines, you're going to want to pull away from each other.

And those vows create that kind of safe space to continue on together.

And I think it's the way it's the same with church.

So church is a family, that's a phrase we use a lot at PPC intentionally.

But the basis of that family is we have made promises to one another, vows to one another.

And we've done that not because we're super holy, but because we realize that basically we're prone to kind of pursue this kind of love affair with ourselves, to go off on our own script and do our own thing.

So, you know, I was thinking about it on the way over.

I remember actually when I left our last church, I did a wee series on the one another's, there's tons of one another commands in the New Testament.

And the understood context for how to live those out is church.

It's that community with one another.

So, yeah, so the New Testament doesn't really seem to have any kind of place for your kind of solo, you know, Braveheart doing his own thing, believer.

It's all within that context of the church.

There's a togetherness and a union.

And what would you say, is there a role of elders and deacons?

Would you say that there's a church structure in place?

Not to the extent of, say, Catholicism and those roles, but say, for example, you have a church and they have new elders and new deacons, as such, it's, as you say, just a collective of people.

Yeah, so you were asking there, I'm terrible at answering straight questions.

So the components for church obviously is, there's got to be the preaching of the gospel.

So church, the literal word church means gathering.

And we're gathering around the person of Christ and the work of Christ.

So there's got to be Christ at the centre.

There's got to be that dependence and direction and empowerment of the Holy Spirit.

There's got to be the glorifying of God and worship.

You know, you look at the very basic components of church in Acts 2.

You know, there's got to be a commitment to fellowship, breaking of the bread, apostles teaching.

What is the apostles teaching?

That Christ has died, that Christ has risen, and that Christ is coming again.

And there's got to be prayer.

So those are the basic kind of things we do as church.

And then of course, the format looks different, you know, staff, not staff.

But what you've just outlined there is important.

This idea of shepherds and servants, so elders and deacons, those are scriptural kind of offices that are laid out in church.

And of course, people use different names for that, bishop, pastor, minister.

But it's all under this understanding that just as in a family, there's headship in a church, there's spiritual headship.

And there's the need to complement gifts and yet you need one another.

Yeah, and I think it's important to differentiate between church big C and church small C.

So the big church, that's the one church, the Bride of Christ, and that's collectively all churches that are under the name of Jesus, so all of Jesus in them.

But you have to have small Cs, it's just a fact.

You mean, based on your geographical location.

You mean like, I can't be, if we have one church, I can't travel to like America.

If the church is there.

So it's the church universal and then there's local expression of it.

So in Reform, the All-J, and I wasn't going to go there, there's also the visible and the invisible church.

Yeah.

So the visible church is the bodies in the room, the invisible is, and we know this, not everybody in the room in any given Sunday is a believer, and we don't make that assumption.

The Lord knows that.

So what is a church, to summarize what I've got from you, is that it is a collective of God's people, and there is that family and that togetherness.

And I think the important thing is that this family is a necessity, and also that there is elders and deacons and those biblical roles such as pastors and shepherds, evangelists and teachers, who are there to help the church flourish, who are there to help shelter and guide and again, provide those components of accountability, et cetera.

So the next question I want to ask you is, and I can't look at my phone too much, because I've actually been told feedback that people think I'm not listening, but actually I am taking notes as well.

You've got a listening piece.

I'm taking notes as well, so try not to look to my phone too much.

Question to you is, is there an equivalent to church in the Old Testament?

Yeah.

Because I think people are like, what is church?

I don't read it in the Old Testament.

I was thinking about this today.

So, and I even think we sing this in some of our songs, this idea that the church is birthed at Pentecost.

I don't think that the church is birthed at Pentecost.

I think the church is baptized at Pentecost, anointed and sent out on its mission, just as in the same way Jesus is born, way before he gets baptized, but as baptism is the anointing, the setting apart, and he goes and fulfills the ministry.

So the simple answer is yes, there is, it's called the people of Israel.

So if the church is the called out, chosen, redeemed people of God, those people existed in the Old Testament, they were Israel.

So the interesting thing about Israel, again, they gathered, they did Ecclesia, they gathered around God's word, sought to worship God, looked to him and trusted his promises for redemption.

That gathering became a kind of formalized corporate thing, first with the Tabernacle, then with the temple.

And yet it's interesting, when they got to the temple, it seems that they kind of failed to recognize that there was this huge big area in the temple called the outer courts.

So it was imagined like you've got your re-church, but then you've got a huge parking lot.

Now it wasn't actually a parking lot.

But the idea was God was even hinting at them in the very infrastructure of the building.

Hey guys, yes, you play a special part in my plan, but the plan isn't just for you.

It's for the nations.

That's what the outer courts was saying to them, and it was a big space.

And so, you know, Jesus picks up on that in the New Testament.

He talks about how he's got other sheep that are not of this fold, they're not of Israel.

He wants to bring them in.

Paul picks up on that in Romans 9 to 11.

And then in Galatians, he talks about how we are now the Israel of Christ, where the heirs of the Abraham.

So there's that continuity.

It's always breaking down this dichotomy between God of the Old Testament, God of the New, New Church in the Old Testament.

Suddenly it appears in Acts 2.

That's not the case.

There's that continuity.

But I don't know.

I haven't looked into that in great depth, but I was just thinking about that today.

I think there's a song we sing by Hillsong at church that kind of, it's this idea that the spirit lights the flame and that's the beginning of the church.

I don't believe it is.

I think it's the baptism of the church where we're then sent into the mission to the nations.

Now you said a word there.

I think it's Greek.

Maybe not.

Ecclesia.

Ecclesia.

Ecclesia.

Yeah.

So yeah, explain that.

So Ecclesia literally means gathering, surrounding or assembling.

Yes.

So the church assembled around the person of Jesus.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So yeah, I love that.

I think that's, so you're trying to showcase that the church is not this new.

Oh, there it is.

Yeah.

Rather, we see undertones of foreshadowings in the old through the tabernacle and through those commandments and what the whole infrastructure of what God was commanding.

The principles of fellowship and community and accountability and of shepherds and of teachers.

And of God present in the midst of all of that.

Yes, be in the center.

And then also this, again, I love that, the article, this outward focus.

Yeah.

Church can never be an inward, like some sort of a cul-de-sac.

Rather, it's a conduit, a conductor of God's love.

Which is kind of, that's primarily where church starts to go wrong.

So when church starts to look in on itself and fall in love with its own story or focus on its own issues.

And of course, there's issues because there's people.

So there's issues.

And if there's more people, there's more issues.

That's when it starts to go off the rails.

So, but when we keep that outward focus, that's actually when we achieve the unity, because we're not navel gazing anymore.

We're looking out.

We're taking risks for the sake of the kingdom.

I was thinking about this this week.

So there's a podcast by a guy called, Tyson, what was it called?

I can't remember his first name.

So John Tyson, maybe, in the States.

So he talks about how, and I hadn't really thought about this as a challenge for me as a pastor.

It's Jesus' job to build the church.

He says, I will build the church.

It's our job to seek the kingdom.

And yet how often we get that wrong, pastors included, where I can make my job maintenance, the building up of the church.

When my job as your job is to seek first the kingdom, Jesus is gonna build the church.

I think so often we're like, oh yes, we need people to look in, but the churches should be exuding this light and this salt and it should just be magnetic to those around and should be this welcoming and comforting place of love that again, showcases Jesus.

So again, that question showcasing that there's a continuity of the church at Old and New, this idea of eclosia, gathering around the person of Jesus, gathering around God and having the importance of teaching and praise and all those principles that you see in the Old appear in the New.

And it's that idea of, say that phrase again, you talked about inactivity, it's the beginning of the church, but no, you said it's the baptism of the church.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, so I think that's great.

Yeah, so Jesus' baptism was about, you know, his anointing of the Spirit, God's confirmation, his seal over him and releasing him into the ministry.

And, you know, I think that's maybe a more helpful way to view Pentecost.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Perfect.

So the third question I want to ask you is-

It's the hard one.

This is like an essay one.

Yes, exactly.

This is a pangit.

Bear with me.

What is the significance of church from a theological point of view, i.e.

Christ the bridegroom, the church, the bride?

And how do we understand the language that is used in relation to church?

Yeah.

So, I mean, so much of our faith is scrambling for language to try and articulate what's not articulatable, if that's even a word.

So, you know, we're trying to talk about God, and we've got multiple analogies or metaphors.

And it's the same with the church.

I think the bride one is really helpful because that it kind of depicts the story of redemption, which of course ends up with a wedding and revelation.

I was thinking, though, about that word, ecclesia, gathering, assembling around Christ, and reading up a wee bit on that today.

And so you've probably heard that theological phrase, the here and the not yet.

So, you know, the kingdom of God has come, and yet it's still to come because it's not always visible.

Right?

Christ is diving across and forgiving our sins, and yet we still sin.

There's, you know, there's glorification coming.

So almost at times at the Christian life is like being on an elevator between two floors.

You know, we know what's been achieved, and Satan knows what's been achieved too.

He knows that his days are numbered.

And yet we're still waiting for the kind of consummation.

So in terms of a church, it's this idea that the New Testament pictures the church is being built by Jesus.

Well, where's Jesus?

Jesus is in heaven.

So in other words, what we do here on earth as church is actually a reflection of what's happening spiritually in heaven.

And one day soon, those things are gonna come together for the great assembling, the great kind of church service.

And so I don't know if that's helpful, but I just thought it was helpful to break it down, that word ecclesia, meaning gathering.

As we gather here on earth in whatever shape or form that takes, it's an echo or a looking forward to what that ultimate gathering still to come.

Yeah, yeah, so beautiful, because I think so often or not, practically I think that's what we can see.

Yeah.

Ecclesia, the gathering.

Yeah.

Look, there's all these group of people.

And we're all sinful, and sometimes it can be difficult and awkward to have conversations, and we're all journeying together.

But it's important to, I think, fix our eyes on what we're actually a part of, this idea of being the bride of Christ.

And as you say, whenever we gather for church, Sunday morning, Sunday evening, and contrary to belief, during the week as well, it's not just on a Sunday, there's this echoes towards this eschological, beautiful masterpiece that we're a part of.

And I think, you know what I mean, it can be hard to see sometimes, but I think it's important to, as you're saying.

Yeah, like part of what you touched on there, so like the church, we're the church whether we're gathered or scattered, right?

In fact, we're mostly the church scattered, like during the week, like we're out.

And that's, you know, so that I think actually there's a big plaque in the lobby of our church that it kind of indicates that the service is beginning when you're heading out into the world.

It's not, you know, when you're in the room together.

It's kind of a good way to think about it.

Just thinking about that scripture in Matthew 18, Jesus says, where two or three are gathered in my name, there I am among them, which is often used as kind of a bit of a booby prize for a prayer meeting that isn't well attended.

But you know, church is a massive, one of the things with church is, it's a massive exercise in getting over yourself and kind of, yeah, like making the focus.

It's a setting your mind on things above because church isn't always easy.

But so it's realizing it's kind of this like imperfect reflection of what we're yet willing to see happen.

But the reason I mention that verse in particular, context is really important.

So in Matthew 18, Jesus gives that promise of being present.

But he gives that promise, not just because the church have gathered, but because they're being real with each other.

So in Matthew 18, the context is somebody sinned, and that sin's been confronted.

They've taken out the brother, then the brawl witnesses, and then they're bringing it to the church.

And so it's Jesus saying, actually, I'm right there in the midst.

I'm present when you are real with each other, when you seek to do redemptive community, not when you're playing.

Because Old Testament, Old Testament church is still around.

We find there that people of Israel, they had all the bells and whistles in terms of gathering and sacrifices and incense and all that.

And yet God said through the prophets, Ichabod is glory had departed, he wasn't there.

So church isn't really about having all the boxes checked.

It's about true churches, that authenticity, that relationship with one another, where it's like, I've got a people that are willing to lead me, spur me on, but also speak truth to me and correct me.

So it's not always comfortable, but God's in the midst of it and blesses it.

Yeah.

Exciting.

You talking about church excites me.

You know, But I really believe this, you know, this is, like I say, I have fallen in love with church through the years, and I'm not rose-tinted glasses about church at all.

I get that there are struggles.

Of course there are.

And so this is another big thing I really want to say is, church is not my hope.

Jesus is my hope.

You know, and so a lot of the times, you know, talking to Christians, a lot of chat about church, I'm like, talk more about Jesus.

Church is the instrument.

It's the expression, but Jesus is our hope.

Yeah.

Beautiful.

Leads me to the fourth question.

What is the importance and benefits of being plugged into church?

So like we've talked about the theological significance, we talked about Old Testament, we talked about what a church actually is.

But now listening, practically why join a church?

Like what is it about some say it does more damage than it does good?

Yeah.

I mean, my tactic, so I'm pretty proactive in our church in terms of pursuing people and getting them to come into membership, getting them to put down roots, getting them to covenant with us.

So if you were to say to me, why join church?

Because we need you and because you need it.

We need you in the sense that church, if it's missional, is a work of faith and nine times out of ten, we're in over our heads.

So we need your gifts.

We need your input.

We need you to discern with us the way ahead because the elders are just regular guys.

The pastor is just a regular guy.

We don't have all the answers.

We're not spiritual gurus.

So we need you.

We need your input and there's a place for you no matter who you are, or whatever age or stage, but also you need it.

So two pictures there.

John 11, really well-known story of Jesus calling forth Lazarus from the tomb.

Just wonderful demonstration of that electrifying voice of Jesus calls you from death to life.

That's the gospel, right?

But then once he calls Lazarus out of the tomb, he looks to the community that are gathered.

So again, Ecclesia, they've gathered.

And he gives a command.

He tells them, take off this guy's grave clothes.

And to me, that's a real beautiful picture of what church is.

So church is us undoing the grave clothes of one another, helping one another make progress in this new life that we've been called to.

Now taking grave clothes off is going to stink at times.

It's going to be difficult.

There's going to be things exposed that we'd rather just sweep away.

And yet, there's a sweetness in it too, as we see each other step into more and more of what God's called us out of and called us into.

Second one, big analogy for me, the Christian life is a battle.

It is.

Now the battle belongs to the Lord, but it is a battle.

And I would say if your Christian walk is not a battle, not a war, you're maybe naïve, you've maybe been jipped, you're maybe already living in defeat, because my walk is a battle every day.

And that's what I'm saying in the Bible too.

And so one of the key passages we love to go to when we think about the battle is Ephesians 6, the idea of putting on the armor of God.

And yet the idea there for Paul is not of an individual with their armor on, but it's kind of of a group of soldiers and kind of a Roman.

It's called the phalanx.

So it's kind of like they all put their shields together and they move as one unit into the victory that the commander has for them.

And again, it's just that idea, that togetherness.

So like in my kind of day to day job, pastoral ministry, I get to do the highs and the lows with people.

And there are times when I have the privilege of stepping into just moments of struggle and moments of defeat.

And it's so humbling, because God's people are not a project to be fixed.

There are people to be pastored.

And even as I try to step into the raw things of their lives and help them and call them to the more that God has for them, of course it exposes stuff in my life.

And so it's always a reciprocal thing.

It's always a two way street.

We're learning from one another, but we're moving forward together because that's what God wills for us.

So yeah, that's some answers.

Yeah, and I think as well, for me, the thing about church, I think people can have a skepticism about joining church.

There is this differentiation between, okay, I understand the theological significance, the Ecclesiastical gathering, I say, so I'm going to attend.

But then, and this is something that I struggled with, there is a difference between attending and actually covenanting with the church and becoming a member.

And for me, whenever I was deciding to become a member of church, I was like, I don't think this is biblical.

I have never read the word member, becoming a church member in the Bible.

So can you speak to that?

Yeah, I've got like a whole four page paper on that.

Why should be a church member?

So there is no, thou shalt be a member command.

But there is like a lot of, basically, I don't know what you're going to do with a lot of the teaching in the New Testament about one another's, about submission, without that context of covenant.

Again, it's that continuity.

So we see church in the Old Testament.

See covenant, like covenant's massive in the Old Testament.

The covenant people with a sign and a seal on them.

What's their special meal?

You know, the Passover, what's their special symbol, circumcision.

Those things translate into the New Testament.

So what's our special meal?

Communion, our special mark, baptism for believers.

But that's another podcast.

But again, so like Matthew 18, for example, that's kind of famous as a passage about church discipline.

And there's the need to listen, to submit to one another.

And if that's not happening and sins not being repented off, then the person's put out.

Well, why would they be put out if they weren't brought in?

So there's always that inference.

So in 1st Corinthians, the church in Corinth, they're told not to judge the outsiders.

Well, why are they called outsiders?

If there's not insiders.

And later on in Paul's writing, there's the idea, he talks about different lists of widows.

And so there's this idea that there is administration in the early church.

So why would they be coming up with those lists and not be coming up with some kind of way of signifying that you belong?

Bottom line in the New Testament, the idea of belonging to the people of God and that people being a physical expression of the presence of Jesus is just there.

So yeah, there's not a, thou shalt be a church member command.

But generally when people say to me, why should I be a church member?

I would say, well, why not?

You know, do you not need a people?

Do you not need people to speak in your life?

Well, yeah, I can, but I can just be a regular tender.

But that's where I would say, but we need you.

You know, we need you to commit to come under us and us under you.

You know, yeah.

Yeah.

It's so implicitly implied in scripture that it's just, it's just explicit.

That's what I find whenever I was searching at this idea, like Matthew 18, you already brought up this idea of church discipline.

You literally can't have church discipline if there's no idea of like, I remember you being a part of a local body.

Then you can't be under church discipline.

And if you want to go down the avenue of like, oh, that's just talking about, so anyone can call out anyone at any time, at any point, it doesn't work.

And this idea of a local body and having guests and pastors and elders and deacons, it's just all these verses of scripture, they just, they prove that there has to be a local body and there has to be a community.

And the benefits of church, for me, it provides provision, it provides purpose, it provides protection.

That's, whenever you, that's, and I find there is a real big difference, and this is what I say to people my age, whenever they say, oh, I don't think I need it.

There is a huge difference between attending a church, even if you do it regularly every week, and then actually being a part of a church, as opposed to being an attendee of it, actually being connected and plugged in.

Because what do the elders and deacons do, the people who are shepherds, they can't just shepherd everyone who comes in the door.

They have to have someone come up to them and say, I want to be shepherd.

And that allows you to do that.

Well, I mean, come back to your bride and groom image.

So it's the difference between a stand up front and making vows and being married, as opposed to me just moving in with you.

So I'm guessing your average Christian friend who's talking to you, why would I become a church member if they're dating?

They get the idea of marriage.

Like that's God's design.

What does marriage do?

It creates covenant and it creates a safe place for stuff to be worked out.

Marriage ultimately is a tool that God uses to redeem and to confront you with you and your wife speaks into your life and works on you.

It's exactly the same with church.

But what the vows do is they create this sense of accountability where I don't get to flip the head and walk because we made these promises.

And let's be honest, when it comes to church, very often in our culture, people do, they flip the head and walk.

And so in a sense, church membership is, it's protecting us from ourselves and our propensity to make it about us and to walk away.

It's keeping us within the fold.

Yeah, I think, I think this summarizes it quite well.

Being a part of the local body that is infused with the love of God, has a heart of service, a posture of humility, and is tightly woven in unity, should be the quintessential reality of a follower of Jesus.

Whenever you look into a follower of Jesus' life, you want to see, you want to see them in that place of unity, that's woven together and the posture of humility and all those attributes and the cardrasics that make a Biblical and healthy church.

So, yeah.

Just to say there, Yeah, please.

Just when you were speaking earlier on, when you read that quote, it made me think of, so Paul Tripp, he has this wee saying where he talks about how, like, a lot of church today is high expectation, low commitment consumerism.

High expectation, low commitment consumerism.

Whereas what you've just said there, that picture of church, that involves a lot of getting over yourself, you know, which sounds to me like the teaching of Jesus, right, to know yourself.

So again, church is this context in which we can live out the command of Christ to not make it about me, make it about the other person.

And it's no coincidence that God uses this idea of the church and the bride.

Yeah.

And of that, we can't really understand the full ramifications of what that means.

We won't understand it in the future, but it's that idea of everything that you need for that healthy, covenanted marriage, you need for the same.

So you can't come half-hearted into a marriage, a lack of commitment, a lack of trust, a lack of effort, and a lack of, you know, both parties have to compromise, et cetera.

Everything that you need for a healthy marriage, you need for that healthy church.

It requires discipline and effort, and it's never going to be easy.

So it leads to the last question I have for you, we'll be glad to hear, is what could the church do better in order to get rid of the negative connotations that usually come with it?

Yeah, so this is immediately me on the defensive.

But I'm like, what do you mean?

What can the church do?

You're the church.

And so we do, even our language is important, because when we talk about the church, we're imagining they're this big bad institution, you know, and, you know, what could they do?

And of course, we're part of the solution, because we are, we are the church.

So thinking about it, you know, church isn't an institution, it's a family we've been born into.

And when you're born into any family, first of all, you don't choose your family, right?

You're born into your family.

And when you're born into that family, you inherit its characteristics, the good, the bad, the ugly, the messy.

So without a doubt, we're born into a family that's at least 2,000 years old, older than that, really.

And so, yeah, inevitably, we're picking up some of its character traits, and they're not all good character traits.

I mean, you see that even, we're looking at this right now in church, we're an acts of the apostle, and you see very early on, it's not an idealized community.

There's issues, they're lying to one another, there's agendas, there's relational brokenness, all that kind of stuff.

So we've been born into that family.

And yet, just because you're born into a family, it doesn't dictate that you have to go a certain way.

We can break from the family tradition and carve out a new path.

So I do think that there's a sense in which, we've always got to be careful when we talk about the church that we include ourselves in that and take personal responsibility.

That being said, I think church could be more Christ-like, right?

Be more compassionate.

I think we could be more creative.

I think we could listen more than we speak.

I think we could discern the times we're in and the culture we're in and the needs.

Sometimes as Christians, we're given answers to questions that people aren't even asking, you know?

We could definitely be more humble.

We really need to be more spirit-led.

We need to get far quicker at admitting wrongdoing and repenting.

We need to talk more about Jesus.

We need to reclaim the prophetic.

And so what I mean by that is, so oftentimes when we think of prophetic, we think of kind of prediction.

But prophetic, the way I understand it is, being a prophet is setting a thermostat rather than reading the temperature.

So it's the difference between a thermostat and a thermometer.

And for too long, the church has operated like a thermometer.

We're like, we're looking out at the big bad world and we're predicting where it's at and it's coldness and it's awfulness.

Whereas Jesus actually calls us to be thermostats.

He says, you know, you be the influencers.

You know, if you see the mess in the world, will you go out and shine light in it?

And you be people that bring impact and bring change and that kind of stuff.

I was thinking as well, we need to be better at not just preaching and defending the gospel, but doing the gospel.

And I think that's probably what's behind this idea of church and negative connotations.

Primarily, when we talk to people about church somewhere along the lines, they've been disappointed or they've been hurt.

And a lot of that hurtness comes from, we're really bad at disagreeing in an agreeable, Christ-like way.

You know, so particularly, you know, Northern Irish prods, we're very good at being right.

It's all about your rightness.

And yet there you are in your island of rightness and you've trashed every relationship.

You know, or we're very clear on what Jesus has done.

And yet in the midst of that, we miss who Jesus is.

He's gentle and lowly.

He's full of grace and truth.

Yeah.

I have a quote that actually, I think speaks to that.

So I say, it says, what the world needs to see is not the Christian church tearing down every fence that was built for the sake of truth, protecting truth, declaring truth.

Rather, what we should do is stop throwing hate bombs over the fences and instead love each other across genuine disagreements and genuine fences.

And that's not this ecumenical, there's truth, we preserve truth through everything we have.

But as you're saying, Yeah, it's being Christ to one another, isn't it?

You know, and I mean, Jesus says himself, like, that's going to be our most effective apologetic in the world, our ability to love one another, you know, to forbear with one another.

And like, you know, so we're talking here about church.

Church can be very broad.

You know, the church I pastor is a broad church in terms of lots of theological, doctrinal issues, understandings of worship, even just appetites, like what people want and what people don't.

And so there needs to be that coming together in the middle and that humility.

Do you know what?

At the end of the day, we are sinners saved by grace.

And as we've received grace, we've got to show grace to one another, you know, because it seems to me the world out there, they're not even asking anymore, is the gospel true?

They're asking, does it work?

And sometimes the dysfunctionality of our relationships kind of messes the message.

We've got to get better at doing the gospel.

Yeah.

I think the church, people can have their reservations about the church and they come up and say, no, the reason why I'm not going to become a member of church and plugged in, even though I can see why it's a command and necessity, is because it contains that difficult person.

It contains that sinful person.

It contains that person who hurt me.

It contains that person who gave me the cold shoulder.

It contains that person who's struggling.

It contains that person who's sinful.

And it contains that person who I simply don't know if I can forgive.

But the reality is that person's you.

Big time, big time.

And I think that's the key.

And I would say to you, well, how big's your God and how big's your gospel?

Because the gospel always gives me a way forward.

So without a doubt, like over 20 years in pastoral ministry, there have been hurts and there have been disappointments.

I've also inflicted hurt and I've also disappointed people.

And yet, I'm a big believer in we pursue one another and we work it out and we move.

The gospel always gives us a way forward.

It's God-y, and so it's viewing those disappointments, those hurts, that's actually the God moment because there's a decision to be made there about how we treat one another.

And that's actually the moment where Christ is really present.

We're in the midst of the hurt and the disappointment.

We show that grace.

That's the power of the gospel.

I can't seem to deviate away from this idea of the Bride of Christ.

And I'm the only one who actually asked you the question.

Like I came up with the question, but I didn't actually understand the full, like as you were saying, it just really clicked with me.

This idea of like understanding the whole idea of the Bride of Christ and the Church and this covenant and marriage.

Like in a marriage that it's going to be difficult, it's going to be hard and you've got to put in the discipline.

I know myself in my like in Porch der Baptist, there's been times where I've thought to myself, there's definitely a better place in this moment in time.

There is a better place where I don't have to deal with this person or what they've said and what they've done.

Doesn't exist.

You go to another place, you'll just find it and encounter another problem.

It required just like marriage whenever you have that argument, surely there's a better husband out there for me or a better wife, better spouse.

It requires discipline, it requires focus.

And in that moment, I would say to you, actually the thing you think is the issue isn't actually the issue.

What's really annoying you in that moment is this frustration, it's confronting you with you and you don't like what you see.

So, and church does that.

So, my experience has been the person that really niggles you or annoys you or offends you.

Generally, if I'm open to it, they're the person that really has something to teach me.

But it's this constant, get over yourself.

Stop making it about your felt needs or your expectations or your rightness.

Because we're all in the one team here and we're wanting one another's sanctification.

We're wanting to see each other progress in the faith and move on.

It's funny, actually, there's, yeah, like at times people say that ridiculous things to be about church.

In those moments, I have to check myself and not be defensive and listen to them and try and pass through them through that.

I'm a big one for hymns.

So lately, I had a conversation with somebody and they said a couple of shocking things about church that just disappointed me.

Then I sent this wee hymn to them later on.

I think, hopefully, it illustrates what I'm saying about this commitment to one another.

It says, Brother, sister, let me serve you.

Let me be as Christ to you and pray that I may have the grace to let you be my servant too.

We are pilgrims on a journey and companions on the road.

We're here to help each other walk the mile and bear the load.

So I will hold the Christ light for you in the night time of your fear.

And I will hold my hand out to you and speak the peace you long to hear.

And I will weep when you're weeping.

And when you laugh, I'll laugh with you.

And I will share your joy and sorrow until we've seen this journey through.

And when we sing to God in heaven, we will find such harmony born of all we've known together of Christ's love and agony.

Brother, sister, let me serve you.

Let me be as Christ to you and pray that I may have the grace to let you be my servant.

So it's that two-way street, we're pastoring one another, we're helping each other through the good, the bad and the ugly.

Yeah.

Class.

I just would also like to say I love Portia Baptist and that was, I've been there for eight years, I remember.

So, but it's just like honesty and transparency and not being like, oh yeah, this is the perfect year.

Yeah.

And they're perfect soon.

To summarise what we've talked about in this podcast is what is church?

It is a collective of God's people who gather together under the name of Jesus, for the name of Jesus, to express the manifold wisdom of God.

And that God has given us this idea of shepherds and pastors and teachers and specific roles to help flourish that one mission of making God known and that it's outward looking.

And is there an equivalent church in the Old Testament?

Yes, this idea of the ecclesiastical gathering appears old and new, and it echoes towards the new and echoes to the present age that we're in now, and that is the church.

The significance of the church, this idea of the Bride of Christ.

I think we've repeated that point several times, so hopefully people can get it.

And the importance and benefits of being plugged into church are just endless and infinite, and you can only understand those benefits if you actually take the step to enter that covenant and knowing that there is a difference between just attending and actually making that commitment.

Yeah, I think that's the key challenge out of all this, right?

So, you know, we're living in a culture where people check out a church, or they critique church, or they consume.

But really, we need the covenant, we need to come in.

So you imagine the story of the prodigal son, the elder brother outside, these annoyed churches, and always a party, by the way.

But we've got to come in.

So if you ask me why church membership, I'd say, why not?

Do you not need other believers to speak into your life?

Do you not need that sense of covenant I do?

In my marriage, the promises at times are what keep us together.

And I've been an amazing wife, but I'm a sinner, she's a sinner.

And it's the same in church family, that covenant, those promises keep us traveling together.

So it's a beautiful thing, but it's a very practical thing and a realistic thing too.

Yeah.

And the last question we said was, what could the church do better?

And it's that idea that the church is a collection of God's people.

So it's what can we do better?

It's not what can the church, the institution, or what can you, it's holding our hands up ourselves individually and saying, I want to emulate Christ, be more like Christ, and get myself plugged in and stay connected and be disciplined and diligent.

And that's whenever all of us take that mindset, that's when we can start to change.

I guess it's that distinction, so we've got to be careful when we're talking about church, because church is Jesus' work, he says he'll build a church.

So rather than critiquing the work he's doing, why don't we do what he's called us to do, seek first the kingdom.

Yeah, yeah, I think it's important, and again, it's not man's model.

It's what God has commanded.

And John 14, if you love me, you'll obey my commands.

I love God, I love his word.

And I love the church for what the Bible says church is.

And if you want to see what the church is, don't look at what the Bible says.

And that's what we want to just emulate and strive towards.

And it's beautiful.

And no matter the mess, the brokenness, that should never be reasons to give up on it.

Rather, it should actually be motivation to again strive towards this biblical model.

It was fun actually, I was down visiting somebody doing counselling today and I saw a piece of art.

I can't remember what the name of it is in Japan, but it's this method of art where you've got ceramics and it's broken and then it's put back together, but where the fracture marks are they put gold in.

Kintsugi.

There you go.

And so it's the idea.

Well done, you're too cultured.

So the idea is there's beauty in the brokenness.

And so yeah, at times we're like God, seriously, church, this is your plan.

Like this weak, broken, weird, mixed group of people, that's your plan.

Well, yeah, it is.

But it's in that very brokenness that the beauty of God and His grace is on display.

And actually that's very accessible to the world because the world's broken.

The world actually doesn't need a perfect church.

In that sense, it needs a people that are actually honest about their imperfections and keep pointing to Jesus.

And the good news is we're just getting ready for the welling.

One day soon we will be the radiant bride.

And I know again right now that's hard to conceive, but it's gonna happen, God's told us.

Yeah.

So to refine it down into one perfect phrase, is there any-

You can tell you're at Cornhill now because you're all like, what's a big idea?

Is there any main phrase that you would like to leave people with whenever we close with this podcast?

Or is there anything that you just want to say, this is it?

Well, so I guess the big question that you gave me was, why church membership?

And I would say, why not?

It's a beautiful thing.

It's God's idea.

It's the hope of the world, he tells us.

Perfect.

Well, thank you very much, Jonny.

That's that podcast done.

And appreciate that.

And hopefully this is helpful.

And that it actually motivates people not to say it's a good listen, but rather to necessitate practical action and to know that now is the time to take a step forward and join that hope of the world, which is the church.

Yeah.

So thanks so much.

And we'll see you on the next one.