Is porn a problem? Feat. Marc Taylor

Candid conversation no.3 sees us talk about a very important and widespread issue...
The problem of porn...

Time Codes:

0:00 - Intro
1:24 - Is porn a problem?
8:24 - What would you say to those who think porn is a positive addiction?
13:10 - What does the Bible say about porn?
17:28 - What is the narrative of porn (The wheel)
20:26 - Summary

Music by
Over the limits
Vernacolmusic

Chapters

• 0:00 Intro
• 1:24 Is porn a problem?
• 8:24 What would you say to those who think porn is a positive addiction?
• 13:10 What does the Bible say about porn?
• 17:28 What is the narrative of porn (The wheel)
• 20:26 Summary

Transcript

Wildfire podcast is an extension of Wildfire, which has a focus of igniting men and women of God into a deeper discipleship with Christ, instilling people with a passion to radically and relentlessly pursue Christ wherever that leads.

That God's truth will spread like a wildfire.

Welcome back to another candid conversation.

I'm joined with Mr.

Taylor.

How are you, Mr.

Taylor?

Are you okay?

Yes, I'm good.

So, have you been tracking our candid conversations?

Yes, I was very interested.

There was actually two candid conversations that I was interested in.

Was it Mr.

Price had a candid conversation?

Yes, and then there was an initial one where you turned up at a guy's house.

Yes, Mark Crooks.

Mark Crooks, yeah.

So that's two.

Was there more than that?

No, no, no, you're the third one.

Oh, right.

You're the third.

You're the third.

Conversation.

So we've talked about should Christians date non-Christians?

And we've talked about what to do when you come across people you disagree with.

So how to deal with disagreement.

But you wouldn't get anybody in Christian circles that disagree with each other.

Of course not.

So that's been our two previous candid conversations.

And the conversation that we're going to talk candidly and openly about now is, what is the problem with porn?

If there is a problem, we're presupposing that there is.

So that leads me to my first question.

It is, is porn a problem in the first place?

Or can we just watch it and there's no issue with it?

So can we watch it from those new repercussions in any area or facet of your life?

You did say there that this is a candid and...

Open.

Honest.

Honest conversation?

Conversations that otherwise wouldn't really be had in Christian circles.

Well, I think that's fantastic because number one, one of the least talked about topics within the evangelical church, especially in Northern Ireland, for some reason, is the topic of pornography.

It seems to be that taboo subject.

To answer it in a very brief way initially, is porn, pornography and watching pornography a problem?

I want to stress that it is, I remember, sorry, I'm just going back, backtracking slightly here.

I remember some years ago, I think it was about seven years ago, I met a man in Coleraine in one of the hotels, amazing guy, amazing guy that put together a framework for helping people escape pornography.

But I remember him telling me that first night, that very particular first night, that pornography was a pandemic that was plaguing the Christian church.

And he actually brought it to his own church, that statement.

And he was told at the members meeting, you're absolutely crazy, it's not, it's not as big a problem as you think.

Fast forward, that was about five or six years ago, fast forward, just about two years then thereafter, and Heather, your mum and I were at a meeting, and it was Billy Graham's daughter, and we were having a conversation, it was in Lurgan, and we were having a conversation after it.

She had written a book, I think it was called, There's One in Every Pew, it wasn't in relation to pornography, but we were talking about pornography being the context, and she made the statement, the title of the book is One in Every Pew, not in particular relation to porn, that book was written, but she said, you know, the fact is, in relation to pornography, there is one in every pew.

So you're asking, can we worship with no effects or nothing?

We'll probably come into that a little bit later.

Absolutely not.

The effects are devastating.

Is it a big problem?

Massive.

Is it a problem that's not been recognized and dealt with openly within our church network?

Absolutely.

There's little small pockets here and there that deal with it sort of underneath the carpet, but I think it needs to become more exposed.

Look, I think it needs to be tackled head on because I do believe, I think it was Ruth Graham, actually, Billy's daughter, but I do believe as you stand on a pulpit and look down, there is literally minimum, minimum, minimum, did I say minimum?

Right, there's minimum of one person in the pew that is watching it, trapped, struggling within our evangelical churches.

So is porn a problem?

Massive, huge, and it's a serious pandemic and plague in our church.

So you're saying that porn is a problem simply because of the reality of the effects porn brings in.

So if you watch porn, there is a consequence to that, just natural consequences, such as if you take drugs, there is a natural consequence to taking the drug.

And it's the same with pornography.

And that's the same regardless of whether you're a Christian or not, even if you are in a secular, secular point of view, for the young person who's not saved, for the person who's not saved and is married and has kids.

Absolutely.

Pornography, like drugs, like alcohol addiction, has natural repercussions that are very negative.

100%.

Let me point out to you very, very quickly, and I know this is a candid open conversation quite short and frank, Taylor's can't do that.

But here's the reality.

Look, Kitty Price, that many of the secular world will know, probably some Christians know as well, who's went through many, many different relationships.

Kitty Price made a statement about a couple of years ago, or maybe three years ago, to say that she would encourage every single person to watch whatever taste of porn they had because it was good for your mental health, physical health, and for your relationships.

Now, you only have to look at her particular relationship status and how she reacts to know that it is not healthy.

Here's the reality.

Pornography has such an impact.

You mentioned that many people don't see it as an addictive behavior, and we'll be coming to that later on, I'm led to believe.

But you mentioned drugs and pornography in the same sentence.

You are aware that someone that watches pornography, the feeling and the kick that they get of that, in other words, the endorphins that are released in the brain, so the mechanism in the brain that's taking place up here, is the same that is released when someone injects heroin into their veins.

So you can understand why a heroin addict, once they start to inject heroin, why they go back and back and back and back, because they're addicted.

But the problem is, what do they need to do?

Look, each time they go back, they need to top up more, top up more, top up more, because the brain, the way it works is, it becomes depleted, so the stuff that you're watching doesn't really have the same impact upon you.

Yeah, so we've said that porn is a problem, and the reason for its problem is the natural repercussions.

And we've also discussed that problem is widespread, so much so that it's a pandemic.

Like if you go into a church setting, if you go into a family setting, nine times out of ten, there's gonna be a person struggling with porn.

And thirdly, you said that porn is addictive, the same like drugs, it targets the same areas of the brain.

It releases the same chemicals, these dopamine surges that go through and create these chemical pathways in your brain.

So then that leads me to ask you, okay, so we know that it's an addiction and you're comparing it to drugs and heroin and how that creates the same problem in the brain.

But yeah, in our society and culture, we would view that negatively.

We view that as a negative addiction.

Nobody says, yes, do drugs, do heroin.

That's a positive addiction to have.

But yeah, when we talk about pornography and we highlight that it is an addiction like heroin, people view it as a positive addiction.

Yeah, they view that as a positive addiction?

Yes.

That it's good for one's wellbeing, that it's good for one, yeah?

Yeah, because clearly they can't deny the science behind it and the reports behind it.

It is clear that both are addictions, okay?

And people can have addiction to various different things.

So it's just about dichotomizing between what's positive addictions and negative addictions.

So what would you say to those who say that pornography is a positive addiction to have?

Why would it not be?

What are the problems with porn?

The same way you've got problems with heroin addiction, what are the problems with porn that make it a negative addiction to have regardless of whether you're Christian or not?

Absolutely.

Is this the scenario now where we're bringing the little we, or are we too quick for that?

Speak in to other negatives, maybe psychologically, socially, spiritually, physically.

What are some of the negatives that pornography can bring regardless of whether you're secular or not?

And then speak to the Christian component.

Why is it wrong specifically for a Christian from the Bible?

I want to highlight something very, very quickly, okay, in relation to where the government are right now with sexuality.

And of course, look, I think it's very candidly and openly to talk about in this particular subject.

Watching pornography leads to another thing that comes hand in hand.

And pornography always comes hand in hand with masturbation, which is another big subject and a big taboo area.

So we need to marry them two things together.

That is why they watch pornography, to lead to masturbation.

Let me say this to you very quickly, because I think it's so important that non-Christians that are rare in little families and little kids right now, and Christian families need to know this.

The World Health Organization, WHO, released a curriculum for 2022.

Isn't this the year we're now in?

2022, September.

I don't know if you've read it, or if you looked at it, or if I referred to it before.

You told me.

I've told you before.

So I want to just highlight this.

From ages not to four, what do you think they want to bring in?

And it's self pleasure, okay?

Now, if you start to bring in the self pleasure there, then age groups not to four.

How do we stimulate the need for self pleasure?

So what do you think then further down the line, people will be introduced to?

Pornography, okay?

So this world of wrong sexual thought and wrong sexual perversions.

So how does it affect you?

Number one, it changes your mood pattern.

Physically, it changes your mood pattern.

And it's so obvious when you work with someone or journey with someone that has watched pornography.

Literally, it's a jackal and high character.

So if it's a married couple or even a boyfriend-girlfriend relationship, and one of them's watching pornography, they will never know who they're getting because it creates this darkness, this sense of depression.

Physically, of course, look at affection various many other ways that we'll not go into just now.

Spiritually, it robs you of your intimacy with the Lord Jesus Christ because your affections are changed and turned around.

So your affections are turned away from Christ and focused on something that is perverse and wrong.

There was another question you may be asking me in that as well, physically, spiritually, emotionally.

I mean, it's all interconnected actually, because what you will find is someone that watches porn and someone that has really delved into it deeply, they will start to become very much isolated and alone.

She will see them distancing themselves.

They will not want to leave the house, not want to go out to weekend with their friends, not want to do things.

And look, you know this, because the reality is, what have we got now in our hands all the time?

Yeah.

Easy access.

Yeah, and even if you think it perverts our culture, socially, it makes us more deviant.

And I actually think it inflates crime.

You can, you know what I mean?

A popular Netflix series at the moment is the Jeffrey Dimer.

Or you even got Ted Bundy and all these things that are so popular at the moment.

But if you look behind that, what's a key denominator in all of these cases?

Pornography.

So it seems to do something to the mind.

If you've got those who, pedophilia, or you've got rapists, or you've got all these sexual crimes that are being committed, you can see that a common enemy behind all of that that's motivating people is pornography, which is what we're going to get to because it's this idea of desensitization leads to participation.

It simply becomes enough.

So you notice that for every corresponding high, as you said, it creates this high, there is a corresponding low, and it seems that the lows are more than the highs, and the highs become significantly less and less, and the lows come significantly more and more.

Now we spoke, now this is applicable to both the secular and the Christian, but why specifically for the Christian from a biblical point of view, is it viewed as a sin?

Biblically, I think you and I talked about this some time ago, and I referred to it.

Many Christians will teach that pornography dates back to the, remember I was talking to you about battle worship, and numbers 11, 12, 13, 14.

And I think that's very important to highlight, but you can't particularly dwell on that part and connect the pornography.

What you can say, that sexual perversion, sexual sin was evident from the Book of Genesis, and what it led to was depravity.

Do you remember even when God looked down upon the earth, it grieved him that he had created man.

What was happening?

Sexual perversion, sexual sin.

So Christians, when they get involved with pornography, it leads them into a world that takes them deeper and deeper and further than they wanted to go.

I want to highlight one thing that you did say there, because I think this is again, a really, really important area, especially within the Church of Jesus Christ.

When someone within the Church says that they watch porn, there is this tendency with people that are not schooled in this, are not versed in this, are not taught in this, to associate paedophilia with pornography.

So look, I think it's important that we need to point out that pornography and paedophilia are not always connected.

Do you understand?

There's many porn addicts that don't be involved in paedophilia.

But I do agree with you in this point.

When you look at paedophilia, you will discover that I think the statistics, look, were about 96.45%, if memory serves me correct.

Anyone that was ever convicted paedophile, 96.45%, it started with either magazines in the early days, video cassettes, or as we know it now, people say there's softcore and hardcore porn.

Look, it's all porn, and it's vile, and it's disgusting, and as you know, we can't go into it tonight, the majority of it is involved in human trafficking and drug abuse as well.

See, we could bring all that into pornography.

So yeah, and you think of anything that's outside of the covenant and marriage, that's viewed as sexual morality.

So anytime you read about sexual morality being a sin, what is sexual morality?

Well, it's anything that deviates away from what God has called us.

And that is the sanctity of sex within marriage and how we're called to keep the marriage bed undefiled.

I think it's also important to look to highlight as well in scripture, if any man look upon a woman, Yeah.

lustfully.

Yeah.

So-

Then they commit adultery.

Yeah.

So, I mean, I think we need to be real.

We live in a world where there's so much to entice us.

So I was just reading when we were away, your mom and I were away on holidays there, I was just reading a little article that God really doesn't call us as Christians to be happy.

Mm-hmm.

Okay, now the joy of the Lord is your strength, we know all that.

Yeah.

What does God call us to be, look, more than being happy?

Holy.

Holy.

Be ye holy for I am holy.

So he wants us to be holy.

So yeah, it's a massive, massive area, and the effects of it are huge.

And before we close, we want to make sure that we're not two men just sitting on a high horse, telling people that, you know what I mean, you're wrong, you're sinful, and you're disgusting.

That's not the message.

Rather, if you think of someone who's in a car, who's in a car on fire, and it's burning, and a person comes up to them and says, you're in trouble, let me help you, that person who's burning in the car wouldn't turn to that person and say, you know what, you're so judgmental.

And that's the perspective that we have here, that there's so many who are caught in the burning car, which is pornography.

And we're in the outside saying, we know what that does and the problems that it brings, some of the problems that we've presented, and we're there to simply help you and pull you out of that.

And that's why Jesus came, so that you wouldn't have to stay in that burning car, and so you could have life and life to the full.

And we're calling people to something better.

We're not calling people to stay in condemnation, but to come out of it.

So before we close, can you just give us the wheel?

The wheel.

So, so vitally important to understand.

So Lucas highlighted, and I don't want to repeat him, but simply to say this, we love you.

Whoever's watching this, we want to help you.

And we are there for you.

The wheel, I was on the wheel, so I'm speaking from experience, so I hope you get my heart here in this.

I was on the wheel.

The wheel starts off, and it's simply this.

You start off with addiction.

That might be something very small.

For many people many years ago, it started off with people will know that are in the older generation, started off with top shelf stuff in news agents.

It's become more readily available.

So you get onto the wheel with addiction.

Very soon, you go around the wheel to the first part of it, and it's escalation.

So the thing that you started out gazing at or viewing, it becomes sort of boring to you.

So all of a sudden, you're in this wheel where the whole thing escalates to something that you never intended to start to watch.

Once you get to the escalation part, you come around to this part of the wheel, where you referred to it earlier.

It's desensitization, especially, and I think the enemy, the thief, comes to kill, to steal, and to destroy.

So those that are in the world are completely blinded.

But many Christians, the enemy wants to come and distill their joy, distill their testimony, distill their effectiveness for the kingdom.

So, he desensitizes you.

It's okay what you're doing.

It's fine.

Sure, what about it?

Sure, what?

Everybody does it.

So you become desensitized to the enormity and severity of what you're doing.

And then finally, on that wheel, addiction, escalation, desensitization, and before long, guess where it leads you to?

Participation.

You will find that statistics prove, I couldn't say that, statistics prove that those that watch pornography, guess what they want to do when they get in their relationship?

Participate and act out what they've watched.

How do you get off that wheel?

Two things before you let me go, because you have to go to the toilet, I think, because you've been shaking for about 15 minutes.

Two things, look.

Number one, only Christ can set you free.

Number two, you need someone to journey with you that you can trust and they can trust you.

Sadly, within the Christian church, there's not too many people that you can go to and just go, whoa, and tell it all, where they'll not go and tell it all to the others.

But you will find someone that can journey with you.

Thank God I find two men that journeyed with me personally.

And it was just amazing to have them and then the power of Christ and prayer just to break that circle.

See that circle?

Once someone is on it, it's like one of them merry-go-rounds.

They are not getting off it unless they come to an end of themselves.

Remember the Prodigal Son?

And when he came to himself, he came to the end of the whole thing and just realized, look, I can't go on.

People will get to that stage, and the power of God and the power of the Gospel and the power of the blood of Christ will break in and set people free.

Yeah, so to summarize this candid conversation, it is that pornography is a problem.

Pornography is a pandemic and it is widespread.

And the reason why pornography is a problem, it is because it is addiction.

And unlike what other people tell you, it's not a positive addiction, it's a negative one, because of the ramifications, social, cultural, emotional, physical, psychological ramifications.

We've also talked about why in the biblical context it's wrong and how that fits with the negative ramifications, which we've talked about.

And then we've talked about the wheel, simply the narrative of pornography that so many people are probably stuck in that endless circle and cycle.

And so to end this, if any of you are struggling or feel convicted by anything that we said or want help, just contact us and we will help you.

Thanks for listening.

See you in the next one.