To drink or not to drink? That is the question | Feat. Joshua Stewart

Is this the most pervasive question that exists within the christian community? Especially among the younger generations. It is no question that we live in a world that is morally lapsing left, right and centre, particularly in the area of ALCOHOLISM and DRUNKENNESS. However, our response to this as Gods bride has been so poor, we either enter staunch legalism mode or permissible Peter mode. "Drink whatever you want and how much you want!," "If one drop even touches your lips you are a hopeless heathen." We lack the authority and compassion of Christ greatly when it comes to alcohol. In this podcast we address this topic through conversation in the hope that we might learn, be taught, rebuked, corrected and trained.

0:00 - Intro
2:06 - Why is this topic so controversial
4:03 - This is a conversation PEOPLE
5:26 - Discerning what is sin, preference and conscience
15:30 - Scriptures position on alcohol 
19:36 - Sin & the prohibition 
20:17 - Deep dive into conscience 
21:09 - Was alcohol the same back then as it is today
26:04 - Conscience framework
33:16 - Wisdom from Joshua
41:44 - Legalism and drinking
49:01 - Practically what do I do with alcohol?
58:52 - Summary | Where we stand
1:03:37 - One thing to take away
1:03:18 - Conclusion

Music by
Over the limits
Vernacolmusic

Chapters

• 0:00 Intro
• 2:06 Why is this topic so controversial?
• 4:03 This is a conversation PEOPLE
• 5:26 Discerning what is sin, preference & conscience
• 15:30 Scripture on alcohol
• 19:36 Sin & prohibition
• 20:17 Deep dive into conscience
• 21:09 Was alcohol the same back then as it is now?
• 26:04 Conscience framework
• 33:16 Wisdom from Joshua's story
• 41:44 Legalism & drinking
• 49:01 Practically what do I do with alcohol?
• 58:52 Summary | Where we stand
• 1:03:37 One thing to take away
• 1:03:39 Conclusion

Transcript

Wildfire podcast is an extension of Wildfire, which has a focus of igniting men and women of God into a deeper discipleship with Christ, instilling people with a passion to radically and relentlessly pursue Christ wherever that leads.

That God's truth will spread like a wildfire.

Hello, everybody, welcome back to another podcast.

You're joined with me, Luke to the TT Taylor.

Yeah.

And...

J-Dog.

Oh.

Josh Stewart, my name is Josh, Joshua Jacobs.

We can try and go J-Dog, do you wanna try that?

Would you prefer if like, we just move on?

No, let's move on really, really quickly.

Yeah.

I apologize.

I apologize.

J-Dog.

For all those who have been offended by that title.

Yeah.

It's a dud.

I'll put a disclaimer in.

I'm J-Dog.

I'll put a disclaimer in.

And you're that guy.

Let's just be honest, you're that guy.

Yeah.

I'm all right with that.

Yeah.

But I'm Joshua Stewart.

Yeah.

It's like, are you a person that people would want to spend time with?

Like, oh, he's such good banter.

Probably not.

No, because of that.

Yeah.

But are you a person who's got a lot of wisdom, who's holy and pure, and people are like, I want to be with him because he's a follower of Christ.

Yes.

Yeah.

So our viewers could be like, you don't have to hang out with them.

I don't want to hang out with them, but I want to do a podcast with them, and you can, I want to listen to this guy.

Yeah.

You know what I'm saying?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Hey guys, this has been such a good podcast.

Thanks so much for listening.

So, Joshua, can you tell us what we're going to be talking about?

Today.

This day.

This very day that the Lord has made, we are going to be talking about alcohol, the bevies, the bev-

the beverages.

The beverages.

Yeah.

To drink or not to drink?

I love that.

That's the question.

I like that title.

That's the question.

That's the podcast title.

And we're just going to get straight into it.

Why do you think this topic is so controversial?

Controversial.

Do you think it's controversial?

Yes.

Why?

And yes.

And yeah, I think there is like a, there's a tension in it, you know, there's a tension in what, what are the boundaries here?

What are like, what's right?

What's wrong?

And like even whenever I was like getting ready for this today, I was like, oh my goodness, I'm actually quite stressed about this.

Because there's so many opinions on it and there's passionate opinions.

Like it's not something that people are just like, often it's not just like, oh yeah, I don't really care.

It's like, there's passion behind it, you know?

So I've both experienced like, I had this group of people in my head who were like, absolutely not.

And if you even think about speaking anything positive around it, like I felt like, oh flip, okay.

And then on the other side, it's like, well, if you speak against this at all, you know, I don't like you.

I don't like you, don't like your opinions.

And I think I feel that, you know, I feel that kind of weight personally of like, wow, okay, got to like, John 1, Jesus came in the world full of truth, full of grace.

Like, I think we need that.

I think because it's both an area that the enemy could attack and use and just amplify and derail.

Yeah, it's also an area that like, yeah, you might feel a bit of a weight around, personal experience, maybe you've done things you regret, you know, so there's not, I think it's quite a personal thing.

You know, it can really, it can weigh heavily on you sometimes, or it can feel, yeah, just a bit confusing.

A lot of different opinions, a lot of different weights put on people.

So, yeah, and can we just canvass this conversation that we're about to have right now?

There is a insane amount of nuance to this, and there's, as you said, so much passion around it, because there's so many personal stories that are reflected by this topic.

You could have deep brokenness within families, within relationships, because of alcoholism.

You can have people on the other side of the spectrum who are like, it's alcohol, like, what are you doing?

Why is this such a big deal?

It's like, you don't even need to...

Why is this even a talking point?

And then you've got a whole array of people in between that, and you've got different expressions towards those things.

And so we are in no way going to be disrespectful to any group of people.

We in no way are going to invalidate any people or this subject, and we're not coming with this naive perspective.

But what our podcasts are and what this podcast will be is a conversation between two brothers in Christ who are at a specific stage in life and who want to be biblically informed in this topic.

And from our conversations, perhaps you can start to maybe learn something, maybe rethink something.

Yeah, that's the hangar, sort of paint the picture of our conversation of what that's going to be.

Discerning what is sin, preference, and conscience.

That is, I think, the key to unlocking this topic, because I think what happens too often or not is people come from their vantage point, and then they start arguing from their vantage point, and the person they're arguing to or towards has a completely different vantage point.

And if you just had theirs, you wouldn't actually be arguing.

Because you'd be thinking the same thing.

So if I think, for example, even a sip of alcohol to the tongue would kill a person, that's my vantage point.

And you think that alcohol could provide medicinal purposes and can help.

And then from my vantage point, I'm like, anyone who touches that is evil and anyone who uses it is evil.

So from the medicinal person's vantage point, they're like, what was he talking about?

It's like, we use alcohol to help people.

Or as Paul recommended to Timothy, take a bit of wine for your stomach.

So from their vantage point, they're like, this is insane.

And then they're like, this is insane.

This helps.

And then the person from the other vantage point knew this is evil.

But if they just had where each other were coming from, it would be completely understand.

It's like, oh, you think alcohol won't kill you.

It's like, well, if I believe that, then I would think the same as you.

Oh, you think alcohol helps people medicinally.

Oh, it's like, it's about vantage point.

And so we want to flesh those things out.

So can you sort of think through for us how we differentiate between sin, preference, conscience?

What's the difference between these things?

Sin, preference and conscience.

Yeah, well, I think there's clarity kind of as you're saying there, there's clarity in the words, you know, scripture.

There is like defining points, you know, that we can absolutely take away and that it's clear, you know, drunkenness, that's a no.

Straight off the bat, we don't need to.

There doesn't need to be an argument around that.

J-Dog is not messing around when he says that.

I'm not messing around, man.

Well, not that I'm like, that's just my opinion.

That's just what scripture says, Ephesians 5, don't be drunk on mine.

But be filled with the spirit.

So there's kind of these clear things, partly.

So whenever we seek the word in that, and we really want to know what is the truth in this, it's there for us.

But then there is also this thing of preference.

I think preference partly comes from experience as well.

Like what you prefer often is like, I prefer mint chocolate chip ice cream because like it's what I've experienced, you know, or I prefer this, you know, this is kind of experience based.

But maybe why this is a little bit more elevated is because people have had maybe really negative experiences around this.

And so, yeah, there's like, so I work with Exodus and Norman Linus, who started Exodus, had a really, his father was an alcoholic, I think.

And yeah, I think that had a real negative impact on him.

So he was very teetotal, like he was a no-no around alcohol because his experience really informed that, which yeah, that for me is really understandable.

And I really sympathize with that.

Others, they haven't maybe even had a bad experience, but just from what they felt convicted by in the scriptures, they're like, this is not the way to go.

Yeah, so I think there's varying degrees of people's experiences and how that informs it.

Yeah.

Yeah, if you think in terms of things that may have fallen through the cracks, we have and will be faced with circumstances and decisions whereby there seems to be a level of uncertainty and subjectivity as to how people respond and act.

For example, a question commonly asked is, should Christians drink?

This is the whole topic of what we're talking about now, to drink or not to drink.

That's the question.

And our responses, followers of Christ, like a unilateral universal response as followers of Christ is, what does God say about this?

Through his inspired word, we should look for whether there are prescriptive commands relating to the topic.

And by prescriptive commands, we mean by that, should we murder?

No.

Why?

Thou shalt not murder.

Prescriptive commands are just the absolute, the do's and the don'ts that we all seem to love.

We love the, okay, so don't do this, do this.

And the second thing we should look for when deciding when something is of God is descriptive narratives from the Bible, e.g., should we murder?

No.

Cain and Abel, and God's condemnation of this when it happened.

And so whenever it comes to drinking alcohol, we got to ask ourselves, are there prescriptive commands as it relates to this?

So just drinking alcohol, do we have a command that says, no, don't drink alcohol, period.

And the answer to that is no.

There is nothing in the Bible that specifically says you must not drink.

The verses we do have relating to this topic refer to drunkenness, really specific.

So there's a lot of clarity in this.

And it is prescriptively highlighted, as you've already said, Joshua, in Ephesians 5.18.

So there's your clarity.

Do not get drunk, boom.

And secondly, what are the descriptive narratives?

Well, we have Noah getting drunk and then lying naked and just putting himself in a very exploitive position.

It's embarrassing.

You've got Nadab and Abihu, iron sons, they get drunk and then they end up profaning that which is holy.

And there is serious consequences to that for them.

That's a grim one.

Their death.

So there's clearly trademarks to sin here when it comes to thinking these things.

Like whenever alcohol is involved, the narratives that we do have can paint quite a bleak picture when it comes to drunkenness.

In all these situations, it's not the presence of alcohol that is the focus.

It's the presence of drunkenness in these descriptive examples.

So do you want to maybe speak anything more into anything prescriptive or descriptive as it relates to this topic when thinking about what is sin?

Yeah, I think there's, so yeah, there's no kind of standard, like a necessarily overarching, you know, this is a no.

Yeah, there's that kind of tension that Jesus talks about, where they're asking Jesus, like, why are you not fasting?

Why are your disciples not fasting?

And he says, you know, John, he came, he came fasting, and you say, like, you know, he has a demon, and then I came eating and drinking, and you say that I'm a drunkard.

And there's this kind of like tension that they had there of like, you know, what, what is the, like what's the right way here?

And I think the John thing is, is interesting.

Like in, in Luke 1, 15, it does say, for he will be great in the sight of the Lord.

He has never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from before he is born.

So there is kind of this like, that was the specific person, you know, like this is the prescription for him.

Like he's never to do this.

And this was like a setting apart, because the prophets, their voice and their word is like, there's a real weight to it.

And if their like, reputation and their testimony is compromised, then that would really, that's not what the Lord wanted.

Like it was the same for the the vitriol priests as well.

Like they were told like, you're not to drink wine.

So this kind of Nazarite fire, it's called like this Nazarite kind of setting apart.

It has intention and purpose there.

And yeah, I get, we might explore that a little bit more as we go on.

But there is also this kind of tension there.

We've got a hold of what is the Lord sent to me, you know, personally.

Like what is he calling me into?

And like really sticking him on that, you know, not just assuming, well, this is what it says, and I'm just gonna go with my preference in this.

Because there is a tension there, and there's an element of a grave, I think because he's looking for, he's looking for an element of surrender, or choice, or like the fear of the Lord.

You know, or of like that seeking of like, God, what is it you want me to do?

And yeah, it's a, yeah.

So it could be an area to explore a little bit more as we go.

I don't want to unpack it too much, but I think that's another side of it.

You know, it's this personal call.

Like, what is he calling you to?

And don't assume you've got the answer already.

You know, press into that.

Yeah, I'm about to read just a little extract here from a commentary, and I'll be able to link it below to provide the authorship below so you can have a little bit more of a dig into it.

But this is what it says.

Indeed, nowhere in scripture is the use of alcohol prohibited.

As a matter of fact, a quick and very selective survey of Biblical passages, where we find the mention of wine, supports the idea that wine is not inherently evil, but actually a blessing.

A little later in the Book of Genesis, we will see that the priest, king, Melchizedek will share bread and wine with Abram.

Jacob will prepare a meal including wine for his father Isaac, who will then bless his son that God will provide him, an abundance of grain and new wine.

In Jacob's deathbed blessing of Judah, whose eyes he describes as darker than wine, he describes him as tethering his donkey to a vine and washing his garments in wine, in his robes, in the blood of grapes.

The law encourages offerings of wine to God as a drink offering.

According to Proverbs, those who honor God with their wealth will find their vats will brim over with new wine.

Woman wisdom, who represents Yahweh's wisdom indeed, Yahweh himself prepares a feast that includes wine for all the men who seek her.

The man in the Song of Songs praises the love of the woman even more than the delight of wine.

The psalmist praises God who has given us wine that gladdens human hearts.

In the New Testament, Jesus turns water into wine, indeed very good wine, John 2, 1, 12.

Paul advises Timothy to drink wine to calm his stomach.

Thus, it is important to realize that the Bible is positive about the benefits of alcoholic drinks, but it is also crucial to understand that many good things, overuse or addiction, can be a very serious problem.

Proverbs clearly speaks to the issue warning about addiction and the problems of drinking too much.

In Proverbs 21, Proverbs 21, 17, Proverbs 23, 19, 21, 29, 35, and Proverbs 31, 1-9, kings in particular need to be wary of the effects of alcohol since it might dull their decision making and ability.

But that's a principle truth that can be taken for all of us when coming to making decisions.

And there are only two groups for which the consumption of alcohol is prohibited, which you have and will touch on more.

Priests who are on duty in the sanctuary and the Nazarite during the period of their vying and consecration.

For the rest of us, the moderate consumption of alcohol is a matter of wisdom, not of law.

And that's the key.

And it talks by Noah's fault and later Lot's fault as it relates to intoxication and drunkenness, which is clearly prohibited in scripture.

But it is quite wrong to condemn people who drink alcohol because they partake of God's good gifts.

But it's also wrong to condemn people who decide not to drink alcohol.

After all, some people have a propensity to addiction and they should stay far away from temptation.

Others may decide for strategic ministry reasons not to drink, such as Billy Graham, a well-known Christian evangelist.

When the waiter came, put a cocktail in front of him, he, seeing the discomfort of his friend, told the waiter that the drink was not his.

So he calmly declined the drink.

He saw nothing wrong biblically with drinking, but that he would not do so for ministry reasons.

For him, that was a decision reached through exercise of wisdom, not the application of law.

So there's a lot there to unpack.

So you can rewatch that a little bit more.

But as it relates to unpacking this topic, we need to think about sin, we need to think about conscience, and we need to think about preference.

And whenever it comes to sin, the prohibition, what we should not do and should not partake of is drunkenness.

Anything that is going to dampen or hinder your sobriety, and that this is a matter of wisdom and not of law when it comes to the text of scripture.

And the prohibitions we do have relate specifically to specific groups, such as priests and the Naseritec Vi.

And whenever it comes to thinking through this, and thinking what is sin, what is conscience, what is preference, we need to look at what is prescriptive, and then we need to look at what is de-scriptive.

But I've spoken for a long time.

We would like to take a deep dive into conscience now.

We've dealt with this idea of sin, but what then about conscience?

So I'll throw conscience over to you, but run where you need to on this, if you have any other comments that you think we'd like to add, as a conjoinder to what I just said.

Yeah, maybe a little bit of that in first.

Yeah, there is the other side of that John and Jesus passage, is that Jesus did drink wine himself, so obviously it's not right there.

That's clear that he wasn't sinning and that.

But I think it was them that's important when you're talking about that, because I think people...

I find that people do often look for...

And I myself have looked for reasons to do stuff that I just want to do.

So what does wisdom look like within that?

In the Mishnah and the Talmud, which was like the Jewish kind of handbook, this kind of recommendation for ancient culture as well, was that wine would often be diluted, and that it wasn't something like even...

It says it's been pagans would think.

It's actually a wee bit mad, for someone to drink full bodied wine, which would have been probably about 11 to 12% max alcohol content.

So firstly, there's this kind of like...

That was the max content, which is not the max content that we experience in our culture.

Spirits are far more than that.

Also, just to preface as well, before I even expand on this, again, this is not me like speaking out of a place of like a lack of experience.

I've had a lot of variety of experience, and I've done a lot of wrong things.

So just before anyone thinks I'm like bashing them, or like if they feel heavy about this, that's not my heart for this, but just want to bring in that injection of what is the facts about alcohol in that culture.

So max 11 to 12 percent, and they would have diluted it three to one parts.

So that's quite a diluted percentage, and it probably brings it down to about 2.7 to 3 percent of alcohol content.

And beer normally is about 5 or 6, normally.

So even that, just that as context in terms of what would have Jesus been drinking, it would have been severely diluted.

And the reason why that was diluted as well is because our watering system is obviously very pure, and we've got good water.

In their time, water was shocking.

So they would have had to have, in a way, wine was like a purifier.

More than it was, you know, this kind of like, oh, just like a wee glass of red.

And it was just kind of like, and yeah, just as a context to like culture, and even the Timothy verse, you know, Paul was saying, don't just drink water because it's going to wreck your stomach, you know, because it was, it was bad for them.

The water in their time, but so that's why he says, put a wee bit of wine in there, that'll purify it.

And like take out any infirmities, stuff like that, it'll help to cleanse that a bit.

So I think that there's an importance in that.

And also that doesn't mean that, yeah, this view of sort of like feasting or enjoying like food, or like having fun within the kingdom of God is then like demonized, or this idea of like enjoying.

Yeah, like especially me and my mentor, he doesn't drink alcohol, never will, never has.

But he loves, we love dinner.

Like just having really, really good food, you know, and like really enjoying that.

And he has like, I've actually taken more of a, I've sort of been figuring out my view on this.

You know, I haven't been completely like T total.

And, but I'm starting to kind of see where he's coming up.

I'm starting to see kind of where he's coming from in this.

And it is swaying me a little bit, but it helps me though that it's not this sort of view of like legalism, you know, of like, you will not do this because if you do this, this is an outright sin.

And but there is this kind of like, but it could be like, and there's a, I think that's a big caveat is that I don't think in our culture, we have a problem with limits.

I think in our culture, we have a problem with limitlessness.

Like we have so much content, so much access to so much stuff.

Even food, like, you know, there's so much content.

We are drunk on content.

Instagram, like, is Instagram a sin?

Not necessarily.

But a lot of the times it is, like it feels like, you could say the majority of times.

But it depends how it's used, maybe, or like, what was in me applied to that?

I know that hasn't, we haven't even got that on the top of the conscience yet, but yeah, I thought that was just important to add in there, of like context to the ancient culture.

Again, whenever it comes to having an informed, you have to have an informed conscience.

Yeah.

So that does relate directly to it, because you need to know these details, you need to know God's words, you need to know the context, you need to know these details, you need to be thinking through these questions as variables when it comes to making an informed decision that aligns with your conscience.

So you've got to weigh that up and you've got to make that decision.

Yeah, totally.

So to speak more and actually, for those who love a little practical template, this year acts for me, it's derived straight from God's word, but to me, it's like a spiritual filter system that I use when it comes to addressing areas of conscience, or preference, or the gray area, where scripture doesn't speak directly to you, but where scripture informs us through wisdom and through the spirit that dwells within us.

So is the thing, this is called the fourfold, this is called the fourfold, is the thing in question, this case alcohol, operating in the fruits of the spirit?

Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, and less, gentleness, and self-control.

Are you surrendering to those things?

Are those fruits present in what you're doing?

And the second is, is the thing in question, passed by Philippians 4, which says, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is honorable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things.

The third is the thing in question beneficial, not just permissible, this is key.

This is 1 Corinthians 10, 23, where Paul, this letter to the Corinthian Church, the Church in Corinth, is addressing a level of licentiousness whereby people feel they're exploiting their liberty and doing what is right in their own eyes.

And there's a clear amount of sin going on.

So Paul's addressing this church.

Is the thing in question beneficial, not just permissible?

Will it bring any spiritual fruit?

This includes rest, fun, laughter.

Is the thing in question proceeding from a place of faith?

Romans 14, 22 says what does not proceed from faith is sin.

And then the last thing is, after you've done the thing that you're doing, or as you're doing it, can you stand before God innocent, like David did in Psalm 18?

Can you do the thing you're doing, that is drinking, the drink that you're drinking, and to the extent that you're drinking is the key.

The level, the amount.

Can you do that before Jesus?

Romans 2.15.

God has given us a conscience engraving true morality in our hearts, and you are now a temple of the Holy Spirit.

So you're, that's crazy, but you can't spend time on that.

But it's like, Yahweh is present with us through the person of the Holy Spirit, and dwells within us, and our body is now a holy temple.

So God is present always.

So what are you doing?

You have to be thinking about these things.

Even that, I had never actually thought about it until we were discussing this.

There is this kind of prescriptive, to the two groups of the Nazarites and the Levites, who were these priests in God's temple.

But then in Peter, in 1 Peter, we get this really radical, very like, yeah, the Protestants really awoke something in them of like, oh my goodness, priests aren't just the pastors, like, we're all, 1 Peter is, you're a kingdom of like, you're a royal priesthood.

Yeah.

And like, just even thinking about that, like, I think there's a real elevation of our role and our responsibility on the kingdom of God.

And that, yeah, it's, I don't want people to hear that and think like, oh my goodness, like, there's so much responsibility.

I'm like, you know, this is crushing.

And I did not ask for this.

Like, I didn't want this.

But actually, it's like, and again, hopefully, we'll get into this, too, of what does it mean to, if the thief comes to kill, seal and destroy, but Jesus came to give life and life to the full, does this mean that actually, there might be something even better than, like, what we're experiencing?

You know, there might be something, actually, that he's inviting us into that is so much higher than what we've even perceived about this topic, or, like, this, what we've perceived about feeling satisfied, or what we've perceived about, what is my role within the kingdom of God?

Like, actually, there's this real elevation of, like, our purpose and the satisfaction of living this life with God.

Like, so I think that's the other side of my, I was a prodigal, and, like, I was told a lot, or I received a lot of, like, this is what you don't do.

But it did drive me to, like, I want to do my own thing.

Like, I do not want to do what I've got to do.

And that sent me on this kind of trail of, like, I'm going to do whatever I want.

I'm like, so I, yeah, I did the whole spectrum, like, you know.

So again, just to reinforce, this is not me coming from a place of, like, oh yeah, like, I've been really good at this my whole life.

Like, no, that is not my story.

But now in contrast, I'm experiencing and tasting and saying that the Lord is good.

Like, there's so much more that he has for us.

It's so much better than, yeah, sometimes what I've assumed.

Before I say any arguments around that, just that as a fact, you know, that there's something so much better that he offers us potentially, not even potentially, that he does offer us.

And exploring that topic and that question is really exciting as well, and really important.

So that doesn't just become this legalistic, you know, burdensome kind of, do this and God will be happy.

But like, do this, or don't do this, but also do this, experience this side of life, which I'm sure we'll continue to talk more about.

Like, are we, like, what is this all going?

We're going now.

Oh, okay, cool.

So, thinking through conscience after we've, after we talked about it and providing these points and the points that you've just said, the question is why go through such a rigorous process?

Like, it's a bit excessive, a bit too much, a bit suffocating.

If being obedient to God's word has become suffocating, something is deeply wrong there.

Something a little bit deeper is wrong and needs to be addressed like a reality check.

Like, we are sinners saved by grace.

Children of God have been given an uncountable amount of gifts.

We are called to be salt and light.

We are called to be different.

We are called to be holy, pure.

We are called to be living demonstrations of the one who created us.

Our motivations come from a place of love and adoration.

We should not only not want to sin against God, we should go further.

We should be only offensive, asking, how can I magnify God?

How can I be the beautiful necklace that attracts people to the Gospel, as Joan Piper said, in Don't Waste Your Life?

Yes, this type of meditative thinking, this Christ-like lens to which we should look through, everything is the epitome of a life crucified.

We should raise the banner of to live as Christ and to die as gain, as Philippians 1.21 says.

Would you like to speak more into the wisdom that you've gathered from your experience on this?

I know you've touched on that a little bit, but yeah, your story, your wisdom.

Yeah, and any wisdom that I do have has been, again, informed by a lack of wisdom often.

That is, I'd say, the majority of my story, in a way, or a good chunk of it, anyway.

Yeah, I think there's a number of things around it.

I sort of, in my life, I'd probably say I have a semi, like a pretty addictive personality, partly.

Like I'm all in, or I'm all out.

And I think I also, I don't think I know that I've also had quite a level of social anxiety as well.

And with that, just stress, and like just anxiousness.

So I think for me, alcohol, in my kind of days where the prodigal, which is like the son who runs away from the father, from God, does his own thing.

Alcohol actually was probably my favorite thing in that kind of life alongside, yeah, living kind of wild and pursuing relationships and all that sort of stuff.

They were the two kind of ones that went hand in hand.

Yeah, drugs for me were never really that appealing or enjoyable.

I did experience drugs and use them, but I didn't really enjoy it.

Alcohol, though, I'll not expand on the details just so that it doesn't sound like some sort of boost, but I was very happy to drink a lot.

And it led to this kind of confidence that I didn't have, which I really enjoyed, and this kind of relaxed feeling that I really enjoyed as well.

But there was this underlying sort of poison of it, you know, that it led to so many really, really, really bad decisions.

And that was an undercurrent throughout it all, you know, that even though the experience felt enjoyable, actually, the consequences were so much more severe, actually, than the benefits of it.

So I think that was a big part of my experience, having very strong alcohol.

I think I've kind of, I think I've actually done a little bit of damage to my stomach, actually, from it, from having too strong of, too strong drinks.

So I think, just even in terms of the long term consequences as well, like just physiologically, sometimes I think, whenever we think about this question, and we think about, you know, not having alcohol is a very kind of, it's the sort of Gnostic view of the body.

Usually the Gnostics thought that the body was unholy, but then Jesus came in the flesh, revealing that the body isn't unholy.

And sometimes that Gnostic view can kind of creep into Christianity, is like, you've just got to suffer all the time, and you shouldn't look after your body.

But actually, alcohol, even though some people might say, oh, you've got a very restrictive view of like, enjoying life and pleasure and giving stuff that your body enjoys.

Actually it's, alcohol is quite damaging to your body as well.

And just even the effects of just even like having a beer at night time and then waking up in the morning, just that nasty headache, you know, of like, oh, like dehydrated, not feeling good.

My conscience even just a few things isn't clear.

So I think my experience has been mixed in that way.

There has been times where, yeah, I've had it with family, and I've diluted it as well.

So it's been probably the quantity or the percentage that Jesus would have had.

And that for me has kind of been, it's normally done a goal, holidays, one Christian family I trust, don't feel, yeah, I feel safe around them.

And that's where I have had it since being a prodigal and it's felt okay.

But I have been kind of challenged by this area in my own life, if I'm honest.

And I do feel this kind of deeper pool now of like, yeah, it's this kind of, Louis Engel talks about it, to give up the legitimate pleasures of this life, to pursue the eternal pleasures of loving him.

And I think that's the other side of my experience is, the more that I've gone deeper and deeper into faith and life with Jesus, the more those things become lesser.

And Jesus becomes far more elevated in my experience with him.

So like Ephesians 5, 15 and onward, it says, be very careful then how you live, not as unwise, but as wise, making the most of every opportunity, because the days are evil.

Therefore, do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord's will is.

Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery or foolishness.

Instead, be filled with the Spirit, speaking to one another with Psalms, hymns and songs from the Spirit.

Sing and make music from your heart to the Lord, always giving thanks to God the Father for everything.

In the name of our Lord, Jesus Christ.

So I think that thing of the tension there or the invitation actually of, don't get drunk on wine, don't do this, but be filled with the Spirit.

Filled with all the fullness of God.

You know, like that's what he prays earlier in Ephesians.

And I think that for me has really been gripping me recently of so many areas that I compromise in my life.

Not just, it's not just been, alcohol has been, like lust has been a big one for me in my life, and that was a big part of my prodigal days as well, and that is an area that can often, like I'm seeking God, I'm like, why is it that I compromise so much in these areas?

So it's not only just alcohol, this is like every sphere of life, like don't, but alcohol is closely related to this area of the Spirit.

Like, don't fill yourself up with the stuff that leads to foolishness.

Fill yourself up with the Holy Spirit, like ask him for, and that's a continuous thing.

The Greek is a present continuous, and the feeling there of like, do this now, but keep on doing this.

It's not just a one-stop thing, like you need to keep seeking him in this, like keep asking to be filled.

I think that's been a real, the other side of my experience, and it was not just the negative, but also the positive of like life in its fullness.

And I've been convicted, and I'm moving more towards that, I think.

Yeah.

So it's important to recognize that there exists a spectrum as it relates to this topic, that on one side of the spectrum, you have those who are a bit of like quietism, so they can like, oh, we've got God's grace, so let's just do whatever we want.

It's like, drink away.

And there's really no thought to it.

They just pick up whatever, drink whatever, do whatever, say whatever, think whatever.

And then on the other side of the spectrum are those who are legalistic, piistic, Pharisees, who hold tightly to law and regulation, and they forget the purpose of the law, which is love, and how Jesus came, and he didn't abolish the law, but he fulfilled it.

And so to those on that side of the spectrum, to those who are more inclined to be legalistic on this, and to pass judgment, Colossians 2.16 says, therefore let no one pass judgment on you on questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival, or a new moon, or a Sabbath.

And now it's important to highlight context there is that this is a debate between Judaizers or Jewish Christians who still think that components of the law are still present.

So ceremonial civil law, et cetera.

Yeah, should be applied, and Paul's addressing that.

But I think it's important to recognize that the principles of what is being said here as it relates to conscience and food and drink in the New Covenant and how we approach one another can be extracted and taught by this.

The love of God, love of your neighbor.

Yeah, and Paul addresses this again, not just in Colossus, but in Romans 14.

As for the one whose weak in faith, welcome him, but not quarrel over opinions.

One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables.

Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats.

So, so often you see people are like, yeah, I can have a drink in moderation, and stand before the throne room, go through that filter of the conscience, know what is sin, know what is conscience, know what is preference, stand before God in a sin, have a drink.

Here, you have a drink.

No, my conscience is defiled.

Oh, you're a loser.

Why are you not having a drink?

And it may not be as sterile as that, but you get what's being said there.

And then on the other side, you've got the person who's like, no, I don't drink.

I stand before God, guilty if I were to drink.

And then the person whose conscience is on defiled picks up and has a drink in moderation.

And you're like, well, what are you doing that for?

You shouldn't be doing that.

You're judging them.

You're like, that's not good.

That's sin.

You're like, it's just these quick umbrella strokes, like these strokes, umbrella strokes that just paintbrush over people's lives.

And it works both ways on both end of the spectrum.

And then Romans 14 also informs us that we shouldn't be a stumbling block to one another.

So therefore, let us not pass judgment on one another any longer, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or a hindrance in the way of a brother or a sister.

That is your family, those whom you're called to love as Jesus loved.

And so the question as relates to this topic is often self-centered focused.

So me, me, me, but it should be what about them, them, them?

And that's where this whole topic starts to open up whenever you start looking at the other person and what is the highest expression of love for the other person?

Not for me, not my preference or my conscience.

What's their conscience?

What's their preference?

How are we being informed that way?

These are just things as it relates to conscience and how your experience speaks maybe to those on the other end of the spectrum who feel a sense of, like, I can do what I want, drink what I want.

It's not really problematic.

And yet you see why God's word does prohibit drunkenness and why there is a wisdom as to approach it with caution and maybe not pursue that lifestyle.

And then I maybe speak more so from a side whose upbringing and tradition has been naturally inclined to judge people straight off the bat without noting motive or character or action.

Just seeing someone pick up an alcoholic drink and immediately view that as sin and them as sinners.

We have to hold intention both of these things.

Yeah.

And that whole thing of, I've really felt that even on the way up there, I was meditating on that, where brothers dwell in unity.

He commands a blessing.

And I think that's the tricky thing about this topic, is that the divisiveness of it, sometimes of the way that it can feel, can really divide.

I'm like, yeah, it can really tear brothers and sisters apart.

Where, yeah, I think approaching it and trying to at least see where the other person is coming from, and then have that conversation, kind of like we're doing now.

But yeah, and to look for those unifying passages, like for me, Ephesians 5 is that unifying passage that no matter where you land on that, that is an aim for us all.

You know, just don't get drunk, but do be filled.

Be filled and let's sing.

Yeah, let's sing.

But I was at David's Tent there for a couple of days in England, and it's this 72 hours of continuous worship, like throughout the night as well.

God bless them, like just the people who have to do that, day to night.

They obviously do slots, you know, so like people play for like an hour and a half or so.

It's such a fulfilling time, you know, where in normal life, you know, we're so filled with the culture.

It's these those kind of moments where in David's tent, we're just enjoying worship, we're enjoying his presence.

Yeah, like the elder brother in the Prodigal Son story, you know, son, I am always with you and everything that I have is yours.

It's in these times where we are both convicted of the things we need to change, but also in worship we're saying like, oh, you have so much for me.

And like, you know, and he gives us those things in those moments where we empty out our praise, and then he fills us up with his goodness.

You know, I think that that is a mutual, that is a unifying passage for me, you know, of like, okay, we can band together on this.

And this is a direction for us to push into, you know, something we can all do together.

It's this, let's focus on that.

Yeah, and to not demonize, to make people feel condemned or to condemn them, but then also to have that call for like, for the more, like, what is the more in this?

Like, what can we be pressing into?

And that that is an area we should be afraid of, you know, or reject.

So it's a lot of, yeah.

I love the way you highlighted, here's the don't, but here's the do.

Yeah, that's really important.

For youth culture as well, young people, yeah, there's no more, like, complacency around that area.

It's like, if we're not giving something here to do, like, like never before have we had people having birthday parties, and, you know, they, like, they start, like, a GoFundMe page, you know, or like, they want to have an effect, you know, like, that's, that's so interesting.

Like, there's a hunger for the more.

There's a hunger for, like, what is it that we're not?

Like, what can I be pressing into here?

Um, yeah.

So, our last question really is, okay, practically, how do we approach the question to drink or not to drink?

How do we approach alcohol?

And I'm going to provide a series of questions for you to ask yourself.

And then I'm going to provide a series of key thoughts to think about.

And then I'm going to provide a series of verses to think about.

So, you've got questions, you've got thoughts, you've got verses.

And then from that, we're relying on Joshua to step in, sort of distill that down and to add to that, like, because maybe it might be an overload, but you can refine it down, distill it.

And so the questions that we need to be thinking about as it comes to this is, is alcohol the same today as it was then?

And you've talked about that.

Is alcohol a necessity?

Is alcohol the best way to avoid temptation?

Are you being a witness for Christ in what you're doing?

Or are you being a stumbling block, as Romans 14 prohibits us from doing, as Jesus prohibits whenever he talks about being a stumbling block to younger ones and being a stumbling block to one another?

And are you acting in wisdom?

That's the questions for you to think about.

The thoughts include character.

What is the character of the person in question, whether they're drinking or not question, what is their character?

Motive.

What is their motivation for either drinking or not drinking?

Action.

What is it that they're actually drinking?

How much are they drinking?

In God's word, it says, let your moderation be known to men.

And the effect, what is the consequences?

What are the implications and the effect of the character of the person, of the motive and of their action?

What is the fallout of what they're doing?

And then the verses of scripture to think about as it relates to the liberty that has been given to us by God.

Liberty equals obedience, and obedience equals liberty.

That's what liberty is.

Liberty isn't, oh, I get to do what I want.

No, liberty is I get to do what God wants.

That's freedom.

Freedom, boy.

And Galatians 5.13 says, You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free, but do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh, rather serve one another humbly in love, for the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command, love your neighbour as yourself.

1 Peter 2.16 reaffirms this sentiment, live as free people, but do not use your freedom as a cover up for evil, live as God's slaves, show proper respect to everyone, love the family of believers, fear God, honour the emperor.

And as it relates to, that's again that liberty side of the spectrum, as it relates to the other side of the spectrum, for holiness.

1 Peter 1.13.16, therefore preparing your minds for action and being sober-minded, set your hope fully on the grace that will be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance, but as he who has called you is holy.

You also be holy in all your conduct, since it is written, you shall be holy as I am holy.

1 Corinthians 3.16,17, do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's spirit dwells in you?

If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him, for God's temple is holy and you are that temple.

And finally, 1 Corinthians 6.9, or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God, not be deceived, neither the sexually immoral, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

And such were some of you, but you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the spirit of our God.

And for verse 21, wine is a mocker, strong drink is a brawler, and the average led astray by it is not wise.

So hold in view these questions, hold in view these thoughts, hold in view these texts of scriptures that speak to liberty and to holiness.

That's good.

Yeah, I think what I feel pulled from that and what I felt the direction just for myself.

Luke 22, 42, talked about actually in the prayer one as well.

But it's Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane.

And he's about to be given the cup of wrath, like this cup to drink, this cup of suffering to die on the cross for us.

And what he says, Father, if you're willing, take this cup from me, yet not my will, but yours be done.

I think there's something both really gracious in that and also really challenging too.

Firstly, gracious, which I need, first and foremost.

But as like all of us here are Christians, like this is the conviction of our heart that we have fallen short of the glory of God, but what he has done on the cross, because he drunk the cup of wrath, we can drink the cup of gladness, you know, the gladness of forgiveness, the gladness of cleansing from error.

So I think there's something really good in that, firstly, and we do need to hold, that I think takes the weight off of our shoulders in this topic, you know, where we feel maybe guilt or shame or this tension in us to remember like, or even that we don't care.

Jesus, he drank the cup of wrath.

You know, this is not a small question that we shouldn't even think about or just something that kind of goes through our mind quickly.

Like, this is something we really need to take seriously.

And to have the fear of the Lord in, you know, this is like, that he is provided away and that he took that so seriously.

The father took it so seriously that he sent the son.

Jesus took it so seriously that he died on the cross for us.

So, there's sufficient grace there, which is also relevant to the legalist, you know, who says like, by doing X, Y and Z, I'm going to be right with God.

Like, by doing this, I'm going to earn my way, you know, and I feel good about myself.

Like, you know, I know that, like, if I'm really, really honest, I'm sinner, but, you know, to everyone else, I want to like make it really clear.

They're like, oh, I'm all good.

I've got it together.

Don't you worry about me.

And you all got to sort yourself out.

For them, it's like the cup of suffering.

What Jesus has done on the cross is, you know, you need this just as much as everyone else.

Like, we all need this grace.

But then the second thing there is, Father, not my will, but yours be done.

I think that is the question that we need to carry.

Maybe that's a summarizing question.

Father, not my will, but yours be done.

Father, what is your will for this?

Like, and seek him on that.

Really ask him that question.

If you really want to know the answer, ask him that question.

If this thing troubles you, ask him the question and he will speak.

And then just the practical element of Ephesians 5 again, just to reiterate that.

Don't be drunk online, but be filled with the Spirit.

And it's by him that you'll receive the confidence, the peace, the lack of stress, the joy, the gladness, the fellowship with each other, the fellowship with him.

And it's the Spirit that Jesus talked about was the water that overflows.

He talks about that in John.

What does he talk about that in John?

Maybe two, two under 11.

He talks about the Spirit being the one who is like a well that never runs dry within us, you know, that gives us the satisfaction in life.

And that is such a promise, you know, for when we do feel drier, if we do feel empty or lacking intimacy, the Spirit is the one who's inviting us into more there.

So I think that's the two things.

Father, not my will, but yours be done.

Receiving his grace in this, like always knowing that, like he is a gracious father, and he will walk us through this.

But he is also that, like we need to hold that fear of the Lord of like, okay, what is your will?

I want to do it, and I need your power to help me do that.

Like I can't do it without you.

I can't be satisfied without you.

I can't have self-control without the Spirit.

The Spirit is the Spirit who gives us power, love and self-discipline.

Self-control, son, mind.

So if we are feeling a lack in that area, then go to him first.

Choose the better, that kind of Mary and Martha thing, which is kind of a weird one, but it felt relevant.

Like the Lutane, like instead of busying yourself or doing something aside from Jesus, like go to him straight away.

And that's a call for me as much as it is for everyone else.

I need to sit at the feet of Jesus and ask, like, okay, Jesus, I'm not feeling satisfied in this area right now.

I'm like, I need satisfaction.

So to finish off, one thought that you want them to take away from, and I'll give you some breathing space to think about that, and I'll just summarize.

Whenever it comes to addressing the question to drink or not to drink, that is the question.

We need to think about what is preference, what is conscience, and what is sin.

And in order to do that, you have to think about what is prescriptively said in God's word, what is descriptively displayed in God's word, and what is it that my conscience informs me.

And we have given questions to think about, we have given thoughts to think about, and we have given verses of scripture to think about, and we have given Joshua's story and my story as to where we have failed on both ends of the spectrum that's been highlighted by us, on the quietism spectrum and then on the legalistic side of things.

And here's just a list of points that would be maybe quite helpful in surmising what we've been trying to say.

Don't drink if you're underage or if it's illegal.

Romans 13 talks about respecting the government authorities.

Don't drink if you're addicted.

1 Corinthians 6.12.

Don't drink if you're attempted to get drunk.

Ephesians 5.18, 1 Peter 1.13.

Don't drink around those who struggle with alcohol.

Romans 14, 13.23.

Don't drink around those who believe it is wrong.

1 Corinthians 8.

Don't drink if you're in positions to make important decisions.

Proverbs 31.4.

So there is clear clarity as to drunkenness and the prohibition that that is prescriptively and what is sin and what is not.

As it relates to areas of conscience and areas of preference, we need to recognize, we need to weigh up, and then we need to respond, recognizing the ethic of loving God with all our hearts, will, mind and strength and loving our neighbor as we've loved ourselves.

And we've given you those thoughts, those questions, those verses of scripture and that fourfold spiritual filter system that you can run things through in any given context.

And again, you can't, what, one thing you can't do in this podcast is say, look, or Joshua said, insert my name, I was this or I did this.

No, we've had a conversation with one another, and it's up to you to come before the throne room and have a biblically informed conscience as it relates to what scripture has said and to have a biblically informed conscience as it relates to what is my view as it relates to alcohol.

If people were to ask me or if I was putting a position to drink or others are drinking, how do I view them?

How do I view myself?

How do I respond?

And how do I do so in both love and truth, recognizing liberty and holiness?

Joshua, one point you want them to take.

I think more of a question for them, because it is a thing that you've got to make that decision on, is what is the better in this situation?

What's the better?

And to make that decision, as we're told, the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.

I think that's such an underrated area in my life and in the culture.

So I think that question with that underlying foundation, the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, which is both the holiness of God, the reverence of him, but also the provision of him, that he has something better.

So choose the better.

What is the better?

And ask that question.

And then explore it.

Like, see what comes out of that.

Like, that's a cool thing, guys.

That's a cool, funky thing.

Finishing with J-Dog.

With J-Dog.

You know, kids.

But yeah, like, that's something to really, I think, explore, get excited about.

There's so much more in that than I think we realize.

None I've even explored yet.

So, yeah, what is the better with a voice break?

I would love for someone to, like, tally how many voice breaks I get sometimes.

But yeah, what is the better?

Fear of the Lord.

What does that say about it?

And then ask that question.

Father, not my will, but yours will be done.

Thank you.

See you on the next one.