The awe and intimacy of praise | Feat. Ramona De-cock

Praise is often a neglected, misunderstood and abused practice!
Yet in scripture we see it emphasised time and time again.

In this podcast Ramona and Luke discuss the beauty of praise and how it should be a diverse and natural response of every disciple of Jesus.

Time Codes:

0:00 - Intro
2:48 - What is praise?
9:21 - Is praise supposed to be intimate?
13:43 - What is the role of reverence and awe in praise?
19:44 - How do we praise with a conscious mind of what we are doing?
27:07 - Summary
28:50 - Ramona's one thing
30:02 - Conclusion

Chapters

• 0:00 Intro
• 2:48 What is praise?
• 9:21 Is praise supposed to be intimate?
• 13:43 What is the role of reverence and awe in praise?
• 19:44 How do we praise with a conscious mind of what we are doing?
• 27:07 Summary
• 28:50 Ramona's one thing
• 30:02 Conclusion

Transcript

Wildfire, the youth branch of Hope2Families, seeking unity and community, helping people come to know Jesus, and pointing people to the local body.

Hello everybody, and welcome back to another podcast.

I'm joined with a very special guest in, I have you saved on my phone contacts, is Mrs.

Decock.

How do you feel about that?

Or will I make the transition to Ramona?

What would you prefer?

It was fine, I call Mrs.

Decock at work all the time.

Okay, I'm gonna call you Mrs.

Decock, just out of respect.

So tell them who you are.

Like for those who don't know you, I know you.

Others will know you, but for those who don't, who are you?

Okay, my name is Ramona.

I am married to Paul, and we've been married for 25 years.

We have four children, Christina, Caleb, Xander, and Nasia.

Got that all right, so it was good.

And I am a primary school teacher, mostly part-time, and a part-time private music teacher, so there you go.

So you've got some experience in teaching then, is what you're saying.

I've been teaching for more than 20 years in education.

Yeah.

In one form or other.

Man, I'm so excited about this podcast, because honestly, I don't know if it's like a topic that gets much mainstream coverage.

Do you know what I mean?

Like, I don't think it gets talked a lot.

I feel like people go to more buzzword topics, like whenever they listen to a podcast or a blog or conversations that people wanna have.

I don't think this is like central in people's theology.

And so then in turn, it's not really central in people's life, I don't think.

So at the very least, I'd love at the very end of this for people to have heard this, to actually start thinking about it and to do more.

This is more of like a, they get a taste for it in this and then they springboard into the, they immerse themselves in their church body and in other blogs and other podcasts on this topic.

So, and I can think of no better person to ask about praise than you.

And by the end of this, everyone will see why.

So I'm not gonna tell you to sell yourself because it will be clear.

So we're gonna be talking about praise.

And specifically, it's intimacy and awe in praise and prayer.

You know, there's gonna be a particular emphasis on praise.

But really talking about intimacy and awe and how that finds itself in praise and prayer.

So the first question I wanna ask you is, what is praise?

And what is the relationship and difference between prayer and praise?

Or are they the same thing?

Help us think through this.

Think through it.

Okay.

Well, I think whenever I was preparing for the podcast and thinking about the questions, a big thing for me is, quite often when we say praise, we immediately think of singing songs, but it's not always that.

So I think it's kind of separating is praise to do with the songs that we're singing, or is it something else?

So how do we look?

And there's a lot of, we read our Bibles, we read the Old Testament, especially the Psalms.

You look there, that's songs of praises, songs and poems and worship to God.

And so thinking about when you read praise the Lord, for example, in your Bible, in one of the Psalms, it doesn't necessarily translate the same way if you look at the original Hebrew.

I'm not a Hebrew scholar, but I have been thinking around this and listening to other people's thoughts on this as well.

And there's lots of different words for praise in Hebrew.

So I thought might even have, we look at a couple of those words, and then that might help us see how praise and prayer and intimacy can all be related to each other.

Do it.

I hear Hebrew.

I strop myself in and I get ready.

Well, I don't know why that.

So anyway, I've got a few different words just written down to keep me right here.

So Psalm 117 verse one, it says, Praise the Lord, all you nations.

And the Hebrew word that is used for that part, that word where we just read praise is Shabbach.

And it means a loud shout of praise.

So it's about like really just like cheering, like a big, yeah, come on, you know, so it's like a huge, like this swelling shout of praise to God.

So I don't know, like in our Western culture, we don't maybe experience that kind of stuff, but you would at a football match, or when Ireland were playing the rugby there last weekend, you know, in the stadium, you hear them say, whoa, come on.

So it's that kind of huge shout of praise to God.

So for me, that makes that Sam already totally different.

Whenever you read praise the Lord, all you nations, and you get them why you can imagine that huge shout of praise.

If you're thinking of all the nations praising God, what is not going to be a whisper.

It's going to be this huge wave of sound.

So that's one of the ways.

And one of the words, another one of the words is Baruch, and it's in Psalm 95.

And it says, come, let us bow down or praise and worship.

Let us kneel before the Lord, our maker.

And basically, what this kind of version of praise is inviting us to do is to bless the Lord and kneel before him.

It's very, very different.

You've got one that's a huge roar, and the other one is like very intimate and blessing God, and kneeling before him and bowing before him.

So it's immediately like, you know, you immediately then think about two different things, but they both, when we read it in English, it just says, praise the Lord or, you know, to bless him.

Another one that I really like, there's actually two that are similar, Yada and Toda, I hope I say it right.

So Yada is extending your hands towards God in kind of like an expression of gratitude and thankfulness.

For example, Psalm 9 verse 1.

So I will give thanks to you Lord with all my heart.

So it's like this invitation, this symbol of like holding out your hands in gratitude to him.

And Toda is the one that's got these upraised hands or uplifted hands.

That's what it means in Hebrew.

And to express adoration.

So there's a real kind of sense of surrender there and adoration and awe of who God is.

So these are all so many different Hebrew words that mean praise, but we read it in our Bibles as praise whenever we're reading in English.

There's another couple of them.

I'm going to find one that I really like.

Oh yeah, my favorite, Zamar, which is from Psalm 33 verse 2.

Praise the Lord with the harp, make music to him on the ten-stringed lyre.

So it's all about using a musical instrument to praise God.

So it doesn't even have to always be with our voices, but praise can take many different forms.

So we can use our bodies as in kneeling, raising our hands.

We can be cheering.

We can be singing.

We can be playing an instrument, and they are all different ways that in Hebrew, it means actually we're praising God, which I think is really beautiful.

And another one, Te Fila, I hope I said it right as well, is from Psalm 39 verse 12, and it's, Hear my prayer, Lord, listen to my cry for help.

So this is praising God through prayer, and it's often sung as intercession and petition.

So it's like a singing prayer, but it's also praising God.

So that's just a few different kind of, you know, words that I thought they kind of cover that whole spectrum of praise, as we might kind of imagine it from our Western church kind of mindset and framework, all the way to the intimacy and awe that we can experience in God's presence.

Ah, yeah, that's good.

So like praise is the exultation, the worship, the glorification of God for who He is and what He has done through all of those varied expressions that you've just mentioned.

And that's only a few.

I think there are lots more.

So I feel like if we're distilling, you could describe praise in a number of ways.

But I think one way, which I think is so important and often neglected, especially in our tradition and culture, is what is praise?

Praise is diverse.

It's diverse, and that's from the Bible.

You just listed various different expressions of praise.

I love that.

The second question I want to ask you is, is praise supposed to be intimate?

If so, why?

Yeah, I think it is supposed to be intimate.

When I think back on times when I really felt that God has been close to me, there have been times whenever it's been part of congregational worship, when we all get together as the body of Christ, and we worship and we sing.

There's that kind of public forum, but there's also the gathering of the saints.

We get together, we encourage each other, and sometimes there are moments when you really sense that God is close.

He is always close, but sometimes you feel it more often.

And I think there have been times in just corporate worship, when we've been singing together, there's maybe a line of a song or something really comes out and really strikes you afresh and gives you a new insight into what God's maybe trying to say to you.

And I think that's lovely because even though you're maybe in a big crowd or small crowd, and you're singing a song that you might have sang many, many times before, God is a God who refreshes, and he speaks to us individually.

And so somebody else could be in that same service and not have had any kind of experience in any way by the same song.

They might have experienced God close in a different way.

But I think, yeah, that's really special, that God sees us as individuals and that he comes in close.

So there's that kind of intimacy even within corporate worship and, you know, big church worship, Sunday morning services.

But there's also the times that I suppose God enables us.

He invites us and he enables us.

So we can only worship him because he has invited us to worship him.

And we can only come into his presence through his enabling.

So we're wholly dependent on him for that intimacy.

And so he desires that intimacy with us.

And so he has invited us in his presence.

And through Jesus, he has enabled us to come and worship him in spirit and in truth through the Holy Spirit as well.

So I think that's so beautiful that how God invites and enables, but also how he speaks to us in a church setting.

But also we are invited to live lives that are lives full of worship.

And whatever form that takes, it can be very practical.

But also there's been times, I suppose, that I sit behind the piano at home and I play.

And you can be very intimate with God in a way that you probably might not be in a Sunday morning setting because it's like this private moment with God.

And you can sing your heart out to him.

You can sing your own words to him.

And you can really get close to God that way in some sense, you know, as well.

There's that intimacy.

So I suppose it's his invitation that he invites us and he wants us to come in close to him.

That's so good.

I feel like above all else in your relationship with God, with Yahweh, there is an intimacy, as you said, and it's an invitation that has been extended to us to enter an intimate relationship with God that has been made possible through the person of Jesus, pouring out of his Holy Spirit.

And we now get to praise in the Spirit.

And I love what you're saying about in the public moments, like unity is where God commands the blessing.

And I love not singing and just listening to the voices of God's people.

I feel like that's always the moment we're in one body, one mind, in one spirit.

We are one.

We're all just doing one thing together.

I love that.

I love for people to observe that.

But I also love the way you said, it's private as well.

Yeah.

I think more people need, I think just a challenge to people is to think, when was the last time you had a private moment with God where you gave him praise in some of the ways that we talked about in that first question?

And maybe start to do it, because I think it brings this intimacy with Jesus that many people are desiring.

The fourth question, or the third question, sorry, I want to ask you is, what is the role of reverence and awe in praise?

Is there supposed to be reverence and awe in our praise?

Oh yeah.

I think so.

For me, I believe that true worship is a response to God's Word.

So like I was saying just earlier, we've been invited into God's presence.

And I suppose in this life, our experience of God is limited to what he reveals of himself to us.

You know, so God is a holy God.

He is an awesome God.

And I think when we read his Word, we get a better insight, a better glimpse of who he is and the awesomeness.

I mean, I know like with us at church, we've been doing, you know, studying Revelation.

And there's a real sense of the awe of God.

He's totally other than we are.

You know, we are his creation.

And so there's a lot we don't understand about him, you know.

But in response to, I suppose, his presence, when we come into his presence through Jesus, Jesus has made the way for us.

And that in itself, he made, I suppose, an awesome sacrifice for us to enable us to be in God, the Father's presence.

And I think when we get a sense of that, when we get a real sense of what Jesus has done, but yet who he is, you know, how other God is, there's that kind of sense of a holy awe can come into our lives.

And I think it changes how you worship, because there's a realisation of, you know, actually, I can only be here through Jesus.

And I think that brings a lot of reverence as well, and kind of understanding what has been done for us to make the way.

You know, when you think back about the Old Testament and when you read about how the Israelites had to make so many sacrifices, and only one person was allowed once a year into God's presence, the high priest, you know, was allowed into the Holy of Holies.

And when you hold that beside what we're allowed to do now, like through Jesus, he's made a way, he's paved a way, he was the lamb of God, he was the final sacrifice.

And the fact that we all are invited to come into God, the Father's presence, through Jesus, and we can come in at any time, it's not limited to once a year, any moment in the day, any time we can be in his presence.

I think that inspires me to worshipfulness, I suppose, number one, and that sense of awe, of being, that privilege of coming into God's presence.

I don't know how to explain it otherwise.

Wow.

I loved what you said, that God is so other.

We can always see people and see circumstances in life and draw comparisons.

With God, there is no other comparison.

And I think comprehension of God brings praise, knowing about Him, understanding Him.

Of course, that is going to bring praise.

But also one of the things that you can know about Him and understand about Him is that you can't know everything and understand everything about Him.

Praising Him in comprehension, but praising Him in His incomprehensibility is amazing.

That's what brings so much awe and intimacy in me.

That He is so other.

And there is so much of Him that I just don't get.

And I love the way you said we're going through Revelation as a church and how that just naturally will bring reverence and awe.

That doesn't bring a bit of reverence.

No, I don't know what will.

So in your praise, I think attaching content or ammunition to your praise is so important.

The more you understand about who God is and what He has done.

And if you just read Revelation, it's hard not to get this posture of reverence and fear whenever you go and praise Him and talk about Him and think about Him.

Yeah, totally.

And I think as well, I suppose as a worship leader in church, I try to choose songs.

I was a, I don't know, worship leader.

I was listening to a long time ago.

I'd mentioned it and they talked about, you know, we need to sing songs of Revelation that will reveal who God is, about His character, what He's done for us.

And out of that, that stirs a response in our hearts.

So it's sometimes looking for songs that help the congregation or help me personally.

It's not just that I'm looking for other people.

I'm looking for myself and songs that will stir, you know, will reveal something of God to me.

And that automatically stirs a response right back to God.

And that's where I totally have unity with my brothers and sisters in Christ.

You say, you know, those hymns that back in the day were so filled with doctrine and content and knowledge and understanding.

It's like, yeah.

And it just puts you in a posture to praise him.

But then the other end of the spectrum is, I would avoid saying that that's completely absent in modern day songs, which can often happen, but we definitely need to draw upon the old and also the new and ensure that regardless of old or new, that, you know, understanding comprehension of God, who He is, what He has done is there, that we have fear and reverence in our praise with Him.

How do we praise with a conscious mind of what we're actually singing?

Like personally, personally, I have seen, you know, not just others, myself, you know, this tendency to get caught up in atmosphere and emotion.

And, you know, I end up singing things, like I don't even have an awareness of what I'm singing anymore.

Right?

So how do we praise God?

Because we're emotional beings with our emotion, and drawing upon it like a holy atmosphere that is totally of God, but also being self aware at the same time of the words that we're actually saying.

Well, I think that's a very fair point.

You know, God has made us both emotional and logical beings.

And so if he made us both emotional and logical, then I think it's fair to maybe assume that he will speak to us both through our emotions and through our logic, through our minds, you know, and our feelings.

And so for me, I suppose there's a lot of, you know, just like you said, people getting caught up in an atmosphere or something.

There's nothing bad about an atmosphere.

I think if we, there's a difference between emotion and emotionalism.

And I remember a long while ago we had chat about this.

So if you're looking for emotionalism, just to get your emotions stirred just for the sake of it, then that's probably a wrong motivation or wrong thing to be looking for in worship.

But there are times when God does just touch our emotions and we're moved by maybe a truth that we're singing or an atmosphere can be either or, you know.

But God also has made us logical thinking beings.

And I really believe that he speaks to us through our mind, through the words we're singing.

And you ask, how do you consciously engage?

I think a big thing is that if you love someone, you pay attention to them.

You give them your attention.

It's a sign of your love that you actually pay attention to them.

And so I think coming into worship and singing songs, if it is about our singing and our praise through the music, then it's maybe coming into God's presence or coming to church or even in our own home, if we're singing in our own bedrooms or our own living rooms, wherever, that we come expectant, that first of all, God is going to speak.

But secondly, that if we love Him, then the least we can do is give Him our attention and really make a decision, I think, to focus on Him.

And there can be lots of distractions in churches, especially like the sound might not work well, or they might not be singing your favourite song, or there might be a baby crying, or there could be so many distractions.

But I think first and foremost, if we love Jesus, we want to show that and express our love through paying attention to Him and going expectant into a time of praise or worship or a time with God wherever it's going to be, just expecting that He's going to speak.

It's a two-way conversation, so it's actually actively listening.

So I think the Holy Spirit speaks to us through so many ways.

Maybe through a Bible verse we hear, maybe through a song we're singing.

And so it's going in with an expectant heart and saying, OK, I know that you want to speak to me.

Give me ears to hear.

Let me spot what you're trying to say.

And so you're already changing your mindset from going in to just receive, receive, receive, OK, I'm going to be active in how I'm going to interact with you, God.

And I think that can be a big help, you know, and then being aware that God does speak to us logically and emotionally.

And then I think, yeah, I'm not sure.

I think then there's one more thing I wanted to say.

I'm just going to check my notes.

Oh, yeah, of course, just engaging in the words that we're singing, if it is through a worship song, engaging and choosing to think about them.

And sometimes, you know, some songs can be a bit repetitive, and that might not be your thing.

But, you know, I suppose it's choosing to maybe think of words that you can sing to God of your own.

Because for me, a lot of worship songs are maybe singing about truth, a bit like a truth about God, but some of them are just prayers that are sung.

And so, then there's no reason why we can't engage very consciously in, okay, I'm going to sing my prayer along with this song.

You know, God has the ability to hear all of us at once, so it's not going to make him puzzled or confused.

And so it's maybe going, okay, God, I'm, I was reading this verse in the Bible, I'm going to sing, I'm going to sing that you're the lamb of God, or you're my Prince of Peace in the middle of this song.

I'm going to, I'm just going to add a bit on that sentence.

You know, it's not like you're going up for a big solo or anything, but, you know, like consciously engaging from, okay, you know, what's speaking to me in this song?

What, what do I really, really, what do I feel God saying to me through this, this hymn?

And then maybe just, you know, I suppose pressing into that yourself, even during the time of worship or during the time of singing.

Yeah, so distilling that down, it's important to understand that we are image bearers of God.

First and foremost, He has made us to be emotional beings and logical beings.

And again, it's the idea of what side of the pendulum do you fall on?

Because there are those of us who just want an emotional spike, it can be unhealthy.

And there are those of us who just want to stay in a logical box, equally as unhealthy.

But yeah, it's important that we come with our brains and our hearts.

Our brains knowing what we're singing, knowing who we're singing to, but our hearts knowing that we want to be ministered to by God.

And that there is an atmosphere.

That is the way that God has designed reality.

Where if you say a joke, people are going to laugh.

That's not going to become an atmosphere, you know, and a fun one.

And whenever you have a holy atmosphere, this is totally biblical.

And it's about saying to yourself, whenever I come to praise God or do anything with God, there is a surrender.

So whatever God wants to do, he can do.

And there are times where in praise, with the lyrics and being self aware of those lyrics, as well as the atmosphere, I have been down on my knees, I have been jumping up and down, I have had inexpressible gratitude, I have had weeping, I have had peace, I have been still, I have stood.

Every posture that you could think of.

And again, it's that, back to that diversity.

And it's just about saying, I'm willing, and I'm open, not so much to where my brain falls out, but I'm open.

So, what one thing do you want people to take away from this podcast on the topic of praise?

I'm going to give you some time to think about that.

I'll just summarize what we've talked about.

We've talked about just this discipline and this practice, and this gift, this blessing, this responsibility of praise.

And we've looked at it's so diverse.

There are so many different expressions of how we can praise.

And it's important to have clarity that there is a difference between worship and praise.

I understand that gets conflated, often in a healthy way, like people always know what they mean when they say it.

But it is important to differentiate that worship is the dethroning of ourselves, the enthroning of God.

It's the complete laying down of our lives and offering our bodies as a living sacrifice, in word, in deed, in action.

And that's the umbrella term, and within worship we find praise.

And there are so many different expressions of praise, which you have talked about.

And it's important that in our praise, that we understand that that's a very intimate time, a very powerful time.

Example after example in scripture, we see that because of praise, prison doors are open, wars are won, like things actually happen.

And our weapons are not carnal, but mighty in God and pulling down strongholds.

And praise is a very mighty weapon.

And it's also important to understand the role of reverence and fear when it comes to praise.

And it's also important to understand that we are image bearers of God, emotional and logical, and that we be open with our minds and our hearts to really sing to God, laying it all at the altar.

Laying it all down the way He did.

So, that's a quick summary.

And I'll roll that over to you.

What one thing do you want them to take away?

I think probably for me, the thing that I take away from myself, and the thing that I find sometimes most challenging is you become expectant into God's presence, because He does want to speak.

And so, whether that's in a church setting or in just a very personal home setting, come expectant, because He does want to speak to you.

And I suppose that worship or praise, as we call it, and as we've looked at it, is interactive.

It's for your whole body.

And that is biblical.

It's not from a particular denomination.

It's actually Old Testament.

It's laid out in the Old Testament, all these different ways that we can use our bodies, use our lives, to praise God.

I think that's really beautiful.

I think the invitation of God and His enabling is absolutely wonderful to think about and ponder about.

He's invited us, and He has enabled us.

All we have to do is come expectant, and He will speak and move.

Praise God.

Praise God.

Ramona, thank you so much.

Thank you.

And we will see you at the next podcast.

At the next podcast.